Preparing for Ipe furniture build

[allen levine]

My momma always told me never jump into the deep end of the pool first.
She was right.
I never listened.

I'm leaving for WNY tomorrow or next day(furniture delivery), and I've already contacted a supplier to put together an order of Ipe.

I wish I never met the stuff, but its beauty is something I cant get past.

My back let up a bit, and I've avoided all work, so I decided to spend a couple of hours drawing out a template,sketch for the chairs.

I make chairs. Lots of chairs. But I use screws and glue and screw the joints together.

Today, mortise and tenons, its another world.

A chair is for lack of a better word, unforgiving. Theres very little room for error, and Im quite sure the experts here know that.

Why I chose to build this way with zero experience in this joinery, noone around to help or suggest things, I dont know.

I can gather info from here, I hope once in a blue moon over this build someone will step in and steer me in the right direction if I stray too far.
This is going to be way above my skill level. I know chair makers might giggle at this, but this is by far the most difficult build I have ever tried.
This aint no cabinet.
Cut some scrap 2x6s, made 2 legs, decided to just cut out half the mortises on each leg to see if I can make some tenons and see how this stuff works.

Laid the two back legs together before I marked them, nothing detailed here, this is scrap, so if Im off a tiny bit I wont lose sleep over it.

I have yet to build a simple tenon jig, that I will do before I cut another one.

It came together with the first few pieces I test fit, but man, this is very difficult stuff.

My intention is to cut every piece to size,(couple extra on slats and supports in case I cut errors with tenons somewhere along the way) then cut all the mortises, then cut each tenon, test fitting them on every piece, even though they should all be identical.(I might taper the front 2 legs and round over the top of the back, but wouldnt do that till all the mortises are cut first.)

[Ned Bulken]

Allen,
Looks like quite the project, and I'm far from an expert on M&T jointery. One thing I do seem to recall however, is that one ought to cut the mortise first, then fit the tennon to it. I would guess that it is easier to cut away the material around the tennon vs hogging out more on the mortise, or worse, having to fill in the mortise. Your mileage might vary of course.

[Chip Charnley]

Allen,

I have one word for you


CARBIDE

When you put IPE in for decking, the tell you to buy several carbide tipped drills and plan to throw them away when you are done :eek::rolleyes::dunno:

In other words, you are going to spend a lot of time sharpening chisels for those mortices and perhaps a saw blade or two.

[allen levine]

Ive noticed if I use the mortising attachment on the Ipe, moving only in small increments at a time, it works fine, dont know how long the chisel and bit will hold out for, I will pick up more.
Cutting, well, Ive purchased a new TS blade, and my dados are fairly new.
Ive built a chair, a small table,and 2 planters out of Ipe,(I thought is was cumaru, but I was corrected by the seller)
Didnt seem overwehlmingly difficult.

Btw, anyone interested in some really cheap Ipe, although I didnt see it, and its only 1x4 in 3 foot lengths or shorter, I saw an ad yesterday or the day before(craigslist NY) on City Island in the bronx ny, 1.00 per foot, (Im sure everything is negotiable). If youre in the market for planters, or smaller projects, its a great deal if its all in good shape. In the picture the guy had tons of it.
I would have made the short trip, but my truck is already loaded down with furniture and there was no way I was going to unload it again.

[Doug Shepard]

I wish you luck on your project. Two of these evil Ipenistas totally toasted a couple of HH Woodslicer blades, a couple pattern router bits, and my sanity. It looks good in the end but thats murderous stuff to work.
23194

[patrick anderson]

Make sure you work outside or wear a respirator as the dust is fine and is known to cause allergic reactions.

$1 a ft is a good buy and I'd love some but thats too far a drive.

[allen levine]

I wish you luck on your project. Two of these evil Ipenistas totally toasted a couple of HH Woodslicer blades, a couple pattern router bits, and my sanity. It looks good in the end but thats murderous stuff to work.
23194

looks great, must weigh around 50-60 lbs, I just wiped my ipe chair and table down with linseed oil today to bring back the color.2-3 times a year.
This build will teach me or test my patience.

I do need a few screws, anyone know a good place to get stainless steel philips head 1.25 inch? without shipping costs killing me.

[Bill Lantry]

Allen,

You might think about picking this up:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Illustrated-Guide-Joinery/dp/1561584010/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

it's worth every bit of 26 bucks... ;)

Thanks,

Bill

[Vaughn McMillan]

Allen, I suspect you will surprise yourself with how well you do on this chair. Should be a challenging but rewarding project.

You might try McFeely's (http://www.mcfeelys.com/) for the screws. Also, your local True Value-type hardware store will likely have stainless steel screws. I know of a couple local "small box" stores that have the rows and rows of thin-drawer cabinets full of oddball hardware.

[Doug Shepard]

looks great, must weigh around 50-60 lbs, ...
I anyone know a good place to get stainless steel philips head 1.25 inch? without shipping costs killing me.

I think they're quite a bit heavier than that. It's very difficult for one person to move one. Two of us loaded them on a roof rack for a ride from here to AZ and we were both sweating and cursing. My guess is closer to 80-90 Lbs ea.

I'll 2nd Vaughn's suggestion on McFeeleys or the Small Box stores. I've bought a number of different SS screws/bolts at a local hardware store that's a Do-All store. But even the Borg has some SS screws.

[patrick anderson]

For the Ipe deck I did I got #10 X 1.5" square drive SS screws from McFeeleys. It was about $90 for a box of 1000 I think.

[allen levine]

thanx. Ill look into it when I get back, I just wanted to see what prices the lumber yard has.

[Robert Schaubhut]

Hey Allen :wave:,
With your back don't give up on the idea of building boats in bottles!:rolleyes:
Good luck with you Ipe. Hard and heavy, glad you are giving it a try!
Shaz :)

[allen levine]

not questioning fate, but the back held out ok.......drove from Long Island to just south of buffalo, then headed over to buffalo for Ipe and Garapa, then headed over to syracuse and had to attend to a few silly matters today so I never had the chance this moring to head up to PUlaski ny to check out the cherry. Next time. The Ipe is home, now if I could only get one of my neighbors to gimme a hand unloading it......nah....Im ok so far.

Would have liked to visit a buddy or so up in syracuse, sorry, work called.

[allen levine]

687 dollars later, not including tax, 450 miles of a drive, 450 miles back home, no damage to my truck, its sure gonna hurt making mistakes. Dont look like too much for all that money and effort.

[Rennie Heuer]

687 dollars later, not including tax, 450 miles of a drive, 450 miles back home, no damage to my truck, its sure gonna hurt making mistakes. Dont look like too much for all that money and effort.
Sometimes I think the same way when I pick up a load of lumber - hundreds of bucks for a pile of wood. What was I thinking?:dunno:

Don't worry - you'll make some nice things, sell them for a lot of money........ then go back and buy more.:D

[allen levine]

For the Ipe deck I did I got #10 X 1.5" square drive SS screws from McFeeleys. It was about $90 for a box of 1000 I think.


I ordered them , 1.25 inch SS, and I ordered a box of 6 square head #2 driving heads, slim shaft(I have so many square head drivers in my assorted collections of drive heads, but I dont know the quality or the actual sizes, since Ive never used them before, figured buy with the screws, get the right ones)

[Chris Mire]

allen, sorry if i missed it but how many bdft is there. or did they sell it by the lineal ft?

i'm guessing 100 by looking at it but without knowing the length it's hard to say.

can't wait to see it come to life

chris

[allen levine]

all of their Ipe products are sold by linear feet.(or at least priced on the site like that)
Its a huge place, my order was sitting on the loading dock waiting for me, a nice young strong kid helped me load,(advantage lumber)

Theres 120linear ft of 3/4 and 84 feet 5/4.
I also purchased a small amount of 2x2 and one piece of Garapa, about 7 feet.
Garapa is bascially an ash colored wood, and its invovled with the first bit of the build.
Not really my set, but its a present for my son for his birthday coming up in Oct.
Hope he doesnt read this, Im making him an outdoor chess table. Size of an end table, he has nice enough boards for inside, thought this would be appreciated.
Dont know how these things turn out, I always keep my fingers crossed.
Then Ill get started ripping up this stuff.

[allen levine]

at least IM having fun:)

to any experienced craftsman, this is childs play, but this is the first time in my life Im actually using a drill press for something Im building.

I spent an awful lot of time setting up the measurements and ofcourse, the first one came out a bit off, but since its just a slight bit off, and its only for leg aprons, I decided to leave it or Id have to waste wood I dont have.
It wont be noticable. In the simple construction, it wont be important.
Just so Rennie could get a good laugh in, I forgot when I was setting the depth of the cut on the drill press, I had to take into consideration where the starting point was above the wood. Hehehehe.....hey, its a learning experience also.

The top, well, the photo is bad, but there are tiny spaces, I cant get a perfect cut in such dense wood(garapa isnt any better) with a 99 dollar table saw with the cheapest fence known to mankind, so I have to accept it or just go out and buy a new one.
OUtdoor use, tiny spaces wont ruin it, its not going to be a masterpiece, but who else has a ipe/garapa chess table.(maybe if one lives in the Brazilian rainforest)

Some beginning shots, the cuts on the Delta mortiser attachment are very clean, I was impressed.(Moderators: if my amateur thread takes up too much bandwidth, please let me know, Ill stop, most of this stuff is first year for most craftsmen here)

gotta go build a jig for tenons, should be interesting to say the least.

[Rennie Heuer]

Just so Rennie could get a good laugh in, I forgot when I was setting the depth of the cut on the drill press, I had to take into consideration where the starting point was above the wood. Hehehehe.....hey, its a learning experience also.
I might chuckle at the colored party lights (coming from NJ I understand), but I would never make fun of your woodworking - I think you're doing a great job and you're turning out work at an amazing pace. :thumb: Keep it up! let's see more.

[allen levine]

I had to up a purchase recently to get the full discount on a borg 25% off freebie card, so I purchased a marples set of chisels(I really dont own any chisels less than 60 years old and dull)
Its a good thing. The mortise cuts looked clean, but to fine tune the fit, I had to use the 1/4 inch to clean out and get each tenon to sit right.

the first pic shows the joints not exact, but cleaning each one out, the joints are tight.

I still have the checkerboard that Im totally unhappy with.

I dont have enough garapa, nor do I want to use what I have(something else in mind for it), to recut it all and start all over.
I have 2 bad spots. One gap area in the center and one smaller gap on an upper piece.
Before I slice it up tomorrow, Im going to end seal everything, including the tenons, not sure if Im supposed too, but dont want to take any chances of splitting where I cut ends.
(I purchased Advantage's own end sealent)

If anyone has any suggestinos as to how to fill in the tiny gap,(besides buying a new fence or edge jointer) please post it.
Im thinking some kind of filler I can make?

Heres where I am now, and Im going to seal all end cuts and leave it sit and dry till tomorrow when Ill glue up the legs and aprons, cut up the checkboard and glue it up again.

after I give it to my son, if he says, hey dad(hes a computer geek, so hes in a fine tuning type of world) you have a bit of a gap, Ill mention its holiday time soon, maybe he should think about buying his good ole dad a decent tablesaw with a decent fence.

[allen levine]

tenons were alot easier than I thought. I attached a piece of particle board to the fence, then raised the blade in the edge of the board, slighty , cut the first cut on all the tenons,(holding them in the miter fence) then raised it again till the desired height through the edge of the particle board, then cut all the tenons the same.
This is the system I will use to cut all the tenons on the chairs the same.
Seems simple and efficient.
The reason I built this little chess table first, to make sure cutting repetitive tenons and mortises will be easier if I do them all at once and only have to adjust the machines one time for all cuts. Practice.

[Vaughn McMillan]

...(Moderators: if my amateur thread takes up too much bandwidth, please let me know, Ill stop, most of this stuff is first year for most craftsmen here)...
Funny guy! Your "amateur" (your words, not mine) thread is not even CLOSE to taking up too much bandwidth. It's a learning experience for all of us. :thumb:

Keep it coming, and keep the pics coming, too. If we run out of space, we'll just get more. ;)

On the gap issue, maybe you could fill it with fine sawdust, then run some thin CA glue into the gap to harden it all up.

[Chris Mire]

allen, try mixing some ipe sawdust with glue or epoxy and spread it into the gap, it looks very small so this should fix it. make sure it is a fine dust though

everything is looking nice. you seem to be doing just fine with your "amatuer" skills

chris

[allen levine]

I mixed some sawdust out of my genie(my 18 y/o vac, that is my dust collection system) with some wood filler and used a spatula to blend it in.
The Ipe sawdust was yellowish brown/green, it dried very light, but I hope not as noticable as the gaps.
What I think I needed to do was to get some Walnut and use some sawdust from that, since Ipe is sort of Brazilian walnut, same shading, but its too late for this project. Ill know for the next one.
Ill be spending hours sanding it down and will cut the slices and reglue in the late morning, Ill show a pic of how it turned out.(tempted to recut it all, just go out and get some white oak or ash now)

[allen levine]

the checkboard ending up being a disaster, but not a total loss.
I cut up the 2 inch strips, and strength tested them by giving them a good enough tug, one broke at a seam, so I guess I didnt spread glue evenly, the rest were ok.
Wasnt sure to use either gorilla or TB3, but TB3 worked on the other stuff I made with Ipe.

And when I got to the end of the cuts, 2 inch strips, the 8th strip was just a tiny, tiny bit off, but being off, and I dont know why, I measured an extra 1/2 inch, but I guess in trimming, swelling(maybe) and just the tiny gaps, it took just enough to ruin it.
I glued up another 4 slats, Ill have to do alot more glueing.
It sanded out nicely though, smooth enough before cut it into slices.
Too bad, but it sets me back alot since I cant touch the glue up till after today and Im back at work, so it will sit till monday or tues.
(im resealing my blacktop driveway this sunday, so woodworking takes a back seat after today.) too bad, it was looking good.

I gotta bo buy a few more clamps, Im just running short of long ones.

[allen levine]

uh, its frustrating I can put together a comfortable adirondack chair or outdoor dining chair in under 3 hours, and this is well, uh.....maybe a bit too over my skill level.
Maybe I bit off a bit more than I can chew.

Forgetting the chess table, thats just gonna be alot of glue ups and hopefully, no more reglues.
This is what the chess board will look like when the other strips dry.


I just checked, at 7:30 pm, the chessboard seems to be holding together, probably because only one side is the ipe.

The aprons and the legs were a total failure.
The TB3 has been in the joints for almost 6 hours and when I released the clamp pressure again, there was zero bonding of parts other than the tenon fits nicely into the mortise.

I glued up a tabletop previously with TB3 and its been outdoors since I finished it, and the joints held fast so far.
I haven't got a clue as to why these joints arent holding, but I'd have to believe there are quite a few species of Ipe itself and this one is not going to accept wood glue.
Im glad I experimented on the small table first. If the gorilla glue doesnt hold, Ill have to redraw some plans for the chairs and make the tenons longer and thicker and secure each tenon with a SS screw. Not what I wanted, but I want the furniture to hold up.
I will not recut the pieces I cut for the first chair. It will have to be one inch less in width and depth than the other three, simply because I will be cutting the tenons longer and fatter. Time will tell, but Im pretty sure I wont have any other choice other than to use screws to secure the joints.
(I dont want to start getting into all types of epoxies, I know nothing about them and I know I could try some marine epoxies but I think Ill just go with SS screws to secure it all up)
to be quite honest, I thought all along the MT joints would be a bummer, but this refusal to accept glue, is proving to be a sizeable challenge for someone of my skill level.
I will not dump the project.

[allen levine]

I wiped all the joints out with mineral spirits, figured any oily residue might dissapear, the gorilla glue seems to be holding firm.
I put way too much in, it foamed all over the place, had to scrape it off, will sand another time.
Joints are firm, I just dont know how well it holds up to weather. I will recut mortises next week and try the chair assembly.

[allen levine]

went right out to the garage to see how it all dried up and held.
The joints will not come apart, I hit them with a mallet hard, a few times, they wont budge, so I know they will hold.
Problem with this gorilla glue, is the foaming out of the joint.
I tried to apply so much less, but as its clear, it comes right out.(on checkerboard, the foam came out after 20 minutes or so, bottom right side)
The sanding will probably take me as much time as the construction.
Excess foam/glue cleaned off ok with a sharp putty knife, but sanding the marks off takes time.

At least it held.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Well, despite some extra work, it looks like it's going together fine. I'll bet when it's all done, you'll be glad you went to the extra effort to make it nice. Hang in there. :thumb:

[patrick anderson]

Nice work so far mate.

I got the Ipe from the same place and it was lovely. Ipe is known to be terrible to use glue joints with as it's naturally oily. I had planned on using Ipe for the birdfeeders and stuff I make but the glue issue put me off.

[allen levine]

i just ordered 3/4 ss screws.
Im going to pass one through each tenon from a less visible spot on all the weight bearing joints, mainly in the legs

[allen levine]

While I understand that posting pics of a simple chair here, is like a high schooler showing a Yankee how far he can hit a ball, this is something totally new and challenging to me.
I had to widen and add length to every tenon, and increase each mortise as Ive mentioned. I cut up and did most of the pieces, and dry fitted it all, and I was a bit shocked. It fit close to perfect? I left a tiny tiny amount of space since I know the glue foams up.
It was actually better than I expected.
Ofcourse, I have to smooth out some bad cuts on the curve of the back,lower left support the mortise in back leg is a tiny bit off, have to add a shim or something for maybe a 16th, cant figure that one out at all, and round over every piece, and figure out exactly how I want to do the arms to the front legs, but its coming together, and I believe cutting 3 at time will save me tremendous time in the shop/garage.(seat slats will be attached to a cleat Ill put on the side supports. The back slats are cut, MT joints, just have to finish them.)
No plans, just winging it along, recording all the measurements I make for the next 3.
Really tough stuff to work with.
The chess table top wasnt so perfect.
I was going to inlay about a 1-2/16th of a piece of garapa into the ipe frame around the board, but just decided to glue a sliver of it right to the board, then glue the ipe over it.
TB for the garapa, gorilla glue for the ipe frame.
I had a few gaps, :(, so I made some paste with the Ipe sawdust, and used some lighter sawdust in one bad spot on the garapa. Ill see how it dries and sand it all tomorrow, this is the board in total repair stage, didnt even blow off the sawdust paste, just leaving it set overnight.
Im kinda happy it held together. My next board is out of walnut and maple, no more of this oily stuff.Sanding just knocks it all off.(another 2 hours of sanding it tomorrow)

[Rennie Heuer]

While I understand that posting pics of a simple chair here, is like a high schooler showing a Yankee how far he can hit a ball, this is something totally new and challenging to me.
Not so! You've shown a good deal of skill dealing with some difficult stuff! It took me about 2 weeks to build my first Adirondack chair - from redwood, with full sized plans!:doh:I'd shy away from Ipe but you jumped right in. Go get 'em!:thumb:

[allen levine]

The first chair is done, rounded over all the edges of every piece, and the only small error I have is that where I wanted the arms to attach by either bolt or screw to back legs, there is a gap between arm and leg. Cant figure it out, something I did in measurements, but everything else fit nice.
Wont glue it up till I get my SS screws so I wont have to glue and clamp every piece. Just needs a light sanding, very slight tearout of a couple of spots after routing.

The chess table, again, its a disaster.
I lifted the base this morning, after a week, one leg came apart off aprons.
Seems even gorilla glue is failing, cant figure out why the other joints are solid and strong.
After it sets again, I will pass a screw in diagonally into tenons on apron for extra support.
The table top had its bad spots.
Mainly in the 45 Degree corners. I usually sand and cut each one till I got it near perfect, but this stuff makes me cringe with these perfect angles.
I showed my wife, she told me Im nuts, to leave it alone, hes going to love it.

Ill splurge and buy him a 2.99 plastic chess and checkers set.

ofcourse, a few more pics to show my errors. Chairs will have a nice dark glow after I put on the treatment, and Ill puchase nice green or blue seat cushions.I know the chair is simple, but since its my first build with MT joinery, and the wood is4 times as heavy as oak, I wanted to keep the chairs light as possible.

[Rennie Heuer]

Hey Allen - looks like you're having some problems but you're overcoming them and things are coming out better than expected.:thumb: Checkerboards are tough. My first one went in the trash:rofl: but I learned from it and the second one came out really nice. Hang in there!:D

[allen levine]

its difficult to align a joint that has to be reglued over and over.
At least Im getting practice in pulling splinters, cause this stuff gives ya plenty of them.
(as much as Id like to recut and just start fresh, I estimated the wood pile, and Im running around even for the rest of the build, so I wont waste any pieces on the chess table.)

Rennie, I cant throw any of this stuff away, the sanitation crews would hunt me down.

I weighed out the difference between rebuilding it, ordering and paying for more wood, or a couple of slightly off edges.
I figured its outdoors, its going to be covered with debris soon enough, using it to hold beer cans and frozen margaritas, sandwiches, and chips, whos going to notice? Its going to get sprayed down with some glass cleaner every time someone wants to actually use it for checkers or chess, so its going to take alot of abuse, not to mention snow, rain, sunshine, etc.......
At least he can say, hey, Im the first one on my block to have a chess board made out of ipe and garapa.(maybe the only one in the northeast for that matter)And I dont feel as bad the first brazilian indian who found this tree and built his canoe out of it, and when he went to launch his beautifully carved boat, it sunk right to the bottom. I figure he kinda felt a little worse than me.

[Vaughn McMillan]

While I understand that posting pics of a simple chair here, is like a high schooler showing a Yankee how far he can hit a ball...
Ya know, every once in a while that high schooler might hit one over the fence...even against the Yankees. ;)

The chair is looking real good, Allen. More ambitious than any flatwork I've done.

One possible fix for the chess board corners would be to cut a saw kerf following your 45º miter cuts (essentially enlarging the gap that's there now), then fill the gap with a slice of contrasting wood. You could turn the error into a feature.

[Rennie Heuer]

I dont feel as bad the first brazilian indian who found this tree and built his canoe out of it, and when he went to launch his beautifully carved boat, it sunk right to the bottom. I figure he kinda felt a little worse than me.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
that's the spirit!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[allen levine]

Ya know, every once in a while that high schooler might hit one over the fence...even against the Yankees. ;)

The chair is looking real good, Allen. More ambitious than any flatwork I've done.

One possible fix for the chess board corners would be to cut a saw kerf following your 45º miter cuts (essentially enlarging the gap that's there now), then fill the gap with a slice of contrasting wood. You could turn the error into a feature.

ya know, that is a great option, never even thought about it.
Its tough to just cut a slice out of this stuff, but I could cut an oversized piece to fill in whatever I cut out, and keep trimming or sanding till it jammed in snug.....thankyou for the idea. I used the recommended finish for Ipe, messimers UV made especially for Ipe decks. I coated the top before, wanted to see how it looks all coated up. If the gaps are still too noticable, I will cut out a small triangle end and put one in on each side of it to make it look like it was an intentional design. Wish I would have had this idea before I coated it........thanx again.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Allen, making a thin slice might be easier than you think. Hopefully this will make sense...

Assuming your tablesaw has a full kerf blade, then the width of a cut that it makes is 1/8" wide. So...you'd need a strip of wood 1/8" thick to fill the gap.

You could set the tablesaw fence 1/8" away from the blade, but that's a difficult and dangerous cut, especially if you don't have a zero clearance insert.

A safer way is to have the 1/8" thick strip come off the waste side of the saw blade. First, take a board that's 3 or 4 inches wide and rip it, just barely trimming off the edge by the blade. (This squares up the board.) Next, move your fence 1/4" towards the blade. When you rip the board again, the "waste" part of the cut (to the left of the blade) will be exactly 1/8" thick. As I said, this is assuming you have a full kerf blade.

If you're using a thin kerf blade, then you need a strip that's 3/32" thick. Same process, just a different fence setting. After the initial "squaring" cut, move the fence 3/16" towards the blade, and the result will be a "waste" strip that's 3/32" thick.

I hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

[allen levine]

easy enough, but Im not sure I want to make any cuts in the angles of the table edges.
Its off so slightly, I could really mess it up, and cutting this stuff is not easy, Id have to use a hand saw on the table top. (Im cutting curves with a metal use only jigsaw blade)
I tried something different tonight. I put some wood filler in one tiny spot, and I died it dark walnut to almost match the color of the ipe.
Ill see how it looks tomorrow.
Ipe naturally will split over time outdoors, not effect its integrety, but will crack(check?) a bit, so something so small wont really be noticed.
I zoom in with a camera and show it off.
I really do appreaciate your idea, something to keep stored in the back of my pea brain.

[Vaughn McMillan]

I completely understand, Allen. It does have a pretty high risk factor for messing something up. Sounds like you've got a good handle on it anyway with the filler. As you said, this will be outdoors, and will get weathered over time.

[allen levine]

assembly is complete of the first chair, and all the design flaws are evident, but I will not change anything on this chair till I complete other 3(where I will change things) and table.
I secured all MT joints with #305 0.75 inch SS screws and 1.25 SS screws in wider pieces.
The 2 design flaws Im not happy with, the arms need to be cut longer and touching back leg(no space) and the front seat slat either needs to be cut wider in rear of slat to match others, or all slats will be inset level with seat supports, and Id raise all four supports 3/4 of an inch to keep seat at same height.
I kinda preferred the look of the slats on top of supports, but Im open to suggestions before I start cutting other 3 tomorrow.(I will cut front seat slat longer in back to match other widths)
BTW, I glued the left side of the chair together this morning with TB3, after carefully cleaning all joint areas, and drying good, when I came home 5 hours later, the joint was so solid I went with TB3 on all joints.(and one screw through each joint)
Vaughn, all pics are mixed, but I used plain minwax woodfiller, Zar Walnut stain after it dried, and it sealed the seam pretty well. I took a pic best I could of the seam now, Im content with it now.


The chair next to the Ipe one is redwood, a design I basically copied.
I had my wife and neighbor sit on the chair, and they said it was comfy enough, and Im sure with a thick quality cusion on the seat, it will be fine.
Simple is sometimes best. I avoided all curve cutting with the Ipe, it isnt much fun, and my bones couldnt take the torture.
Im doing this for exactly 2 years now. I started building "stuff" last week in August 2006.No help, noone to show me anything. Im not embarrassed of any mistakes or posting the pics of my errors. Id be a fool not to accept any advice from people here that have 25 times the amount of experience, and it would be foolish not to use the wealth of info I can find on this site.
(the redwood chair on the left is at least less than half the weight of the Ipe chair, but my wife can lift the ipe chair so its not unbearable)

[Rennie Heuer]

Hi Allen,

Despite the "design flaws" it turned out pretty well. I like the design - light and simple.

[allen levine]

last pics, sorry about the pic of the chess table, I could reshoot it.
Ipe coated with Messmers UV, made for Ipe.(from what Ive read, coat this stuff twice a year, its possible for it to look this good in 100 years from now outdoors)

before leaving this thread till Im done with all chairs and table, I would like to say that although this wood is not available all over at decent prices, Advantage up in Buffalo NY, offers great prices and are a pleasure to deal with.

no more pics for a while, I promise, next one will be of completed set. Ive got my work cut out for me.
Thanx to anyone that offered advice.

[Rennie Heuer]

last pics, sorry about the pic of the chess table, I could reshoot it.
Ipe coated with Messmers UV, made for Ipe.(from what Ive read, coat this stuff twice a year, its possible for it to look this good in 100 years from now outdoors)

before leaving this thread till Im done with all chairs and table, I would like to say that although this wood is not available all over at decent prices, Advantage up in Buffalo NY, offers great prices and are a pleasure to deal with.

no more pics for a while, I promise, next one will be of completed set. Ive got my work cut out for me.
Thanx to anyone that offered advice.
Gotta tell ya Allen - that chair looks great!:thumb:

[Vaughn McMillan]

Ya done good, Allen. :thumb: The chess table patched up nicely, and the chair came out great too.

[allen levine]

thanyou, Im happy with the finish and the quality of the chair now.(only time will show how TB3, Ipe and rain gel together, or for this project, dont gel well together.)

[allen levine]

as I walked into the house I had a bad thought.
What happens if for some strange reason all that wood Im cutting and all those mortises and tenons(I have a blister on my palm from the drill press after yesterday), dont fit for some strange reason. I tested one or two and just went to to, since theres so much repetition of parts. :eek:
could be a rather costly event for me.
Its like a puzzle, hopefull all the pieces will fit together when Im done.

[Rennie Heuer]

What happens if for some strange reason all that wood Im cutting and all those mortises and tenons(I have a blister on my palm from the drill press after yesterday), dont fit for some strange reason.
:eek::eek::eek:

I've had that nightmare myself a few times.

If you dimensioned all your parts to be exactly the same, and you used stops or a jig, you should be OK. :thumb:

[allen levine]

I never thought there would be a day when I would actually be hand trimming pieces and hand chiseling mortises to get perfect fits.
Never.
I cut each tenon a drop long, and some are maybe 1/32nd to wide.
I bought this marples trim saw a while back, not too sure why, but now i know.
Chisels and trim saws in my hands, and working perfectly,(for me) man, they must make some pretty good tools cause Im really not experienced at hand doing anything.
Already got the plans drawn out for the slatted table. Ill just finish up these chairs. Moving along.:wave:

(between the lower back and the lousy diverticulosis, Im not getting the time outside to work on this project I thought I would. The weather is fantastic, and I was laid up most of the last 2 days, ya know what, it sometimes really stinks when you start to get old.


and the worst thing is , as usual, I ran out of clamps. I using the few bar clamps, but I can only do the two until I get enough drying time.

[allen levine]

chairs complete, at least until I finish table and know if I have some leftover to redo one or two slats.
I changed the front seat slat for just some uniformity with the rest of the slats.(I will change the first chair when Im finished with entire project)I also moved the back slats down an inch, just looks better.

*thanx to whoever for the McFeeleys tip. The SS screws are probably best choice, their quality and price are best

[Rennie Heuer]

Hi Allen - those turned out nice!

But, if I may, "Do Not Feed the Monkey?"

[Vaughn McMillan]

I agree with Rennie...the chairs look great. :thumb: Looking forward to seeing the whole set when it's completed.

[allen levine]

Hi Allen - those turned out nice!

But, if I may, "Do Not Feed the Monkey?"

wow, Im glad Im not in a witness protection program.

The sign on the ground says dont feed the animals.

We had a huge problem one winter with animals feeding off our garbage.

My yard seemed to be the only one getting the pails knocked over and garbage strewn all over the place.

It was referred to as a zoo, since we had so many wild animals running around my yard(hey, this is Long Island, a racoon is considered a beast of the wild), and people would joke, stop feeding the animals so much.
so, when I got the Rockler sign making kit, I practiced a bit.

[Rennie Heuer]

Well, that explains the "don't feed" sign. Now, what about the monkey house? :huh:

[allen levine]

its supposed to be a zoo, I have a lion house sign somewhere also.
I have alot of time on my hands sometimes.:rolleyes:

[allen levine]

the table top is a bit more invovled than I had figured.

Matching 18 slats to fit into the wider slats, and all come together perfectly, well, its a little work.

I started to dry fit some slats into the ends to see the size compared to the chairs, not as easy to visual until I see it together.(I can only decrease the size)

Sorry about the poor quality, the last shot is almost useless, just wanted to show how Im joining the ends of the table.
My hands arent holding steady after a tough night with a bout of my lovely intestinal disease.
Wanted to cut some tenons before the football buddies roll in, Im hosting today
Ill reshoot some shots tomorrow after I get some serious work done.

(if anyone looks at this post, I do know I didnt cut the opposite ends of the wider slats yet. I wanted to fit it all up and make as close to exact fit as I could)

[patrick anderson]

Looking good there mate, have you got the glue issues sorted out?

[allen levine]

Ive put a screw through each joint. I decided after having a couple of joints on the chess table fail with only gorilla glue, Id switched back to TB3.
I clean each tenon with mineral spirits, to get it clean and dry.(a non-oily feel) Seems to work ok, dont know if cleaning tenons help.

[patrick anderson]

I was debating about try Ipe for one of my birdfeeder designs but as they require mostly glue for assembly (and the odd pin nail) I wasn't sure if it would hold. The worst part would be the main part where the seed tray sits as it would have to be 3 pieces glued up to make it deep enough.

[allen levine]

Against wishes and demands from the Warden, and Im sure the doc by the end of today, I managed to finish the table top off.
Not as easy as I thought. I had only little damage up till now with tools.
One Dewalt bit cracked today, but eveything else held up fine.
My drawing measurements were 35.5 x 54. The final measurements were 35.5 by 54 and 3/8ths. Go figure, but thats why I didnt cut any end pieces till I had all the slats in and held firm with clamps to see the actual size Id need.
:huh:

I dropped an end piece and an inch of it cracked off, but I turned it underneath and reglued it on, stuck a screw through. Underside wont be seen.

A few pics, not sanded and not cleaned up yet.(I rounded off edges but forgot to put a tiny chamfer on the insided ends of the table ends. I guess Ill sand it out a little to compensate)

One stainless steel square bit head 3/4 inch into each tenon to hold secure, underside only.

oh yeah, almost forgot, its one heavy little table top.
(I also spaced the slats a bit too far I believe after I assembled it, maybe should have stuck with 1/4 inch apart, this will have to do, Im not taking it apart or recutting)

[allen levine]

I was debating about try Ipe for one of my birdfeeder designs but as they require mostly glue for assembly (and the odd pin nail) I wasn't sure if it would hold. The worst part would be the main part where the seed tray sits as it would have to be 3 pieces glued up to make it deep enough.

I dont think youd have a problem if you shot some screws through it to hold any joined areas.(predrilling is essential,)
And theres always some nasty splinters.

[Rennie Heuer]

Looks pretty good Allen - I doubt you'll have any trouble with it coming apart! Must be tough stuff to work judging by the condition of that bit!

[patrick anderson]

The trouble is my joints are too small to be able to use screws.

Ipe kills drill bits fast. I went through 2 brand new dewalt drill/countersinks putting the deck down.

[allen levine]

alot tougher than other woods for sure, but if you get a good titanium or carbide tipped bit, relatively small, coulnt you drill into the joints and use a very fine type SS screw, without countersinking it. Not sure what they are called, maybe panhead?

[allen levine]

drove over to harrows on rt 110, and I couldnt find the store.
Figured I look for some cushions, this time of year, I gotta find some kinda discount.
I turned around, heading home, I saw a Fortunoff Backyard Outlet Center
I usually wont pay their prices, but what a score.
69.99 seat cushions, reduced to 5.00 each!
Got two extra, why not.
Not the exact size, but good enough, and top quality.

As I left, I said to myself, too bad they dont sell tablesaws.

[Rennie Heuer]

Wow Allen! Great score!

Fortunoff - now there's a name I haven't heard since I moved west.

[allen levine]

the only part of the table and chairs I didnt bother to design, was the legs/base of the table.
Figured, alot of options, so Id see what it all looks like.
I studied alot of pictures of ipe, teak and a few other more common hardwood tables made for outdoors, and I came up with a pretty basic design.


guesstimating the total weight of the table, top and base, I figure around 80-85lbs. Not as bad as I thought.
The table top ended up being a few inches shorter in width and length than I had planned, but the 3/4 stock was very tight, since I changed up the chair design. I have I think 7 pieces of 5/4 stock left., and maybe 3 feet only of 3/4 stock.
Very close, glad I didnt run out.

[allen levine]

Finished!

86 mortises, 136 tenons, 120 linear feet 1x6 ipe, 60 linear feet 5/4x6 ipe
A handful of SS screws and around 100 nasty wood splinters in every part of my hands.
And Id guess 75 lbs of ipe sawdust in the trash
I made a "faux" through mortise/tenon to make it look better where the bottom stretcher attaches.

[Rennie Heuer]

Wow Allen - those turned out great!! Well done!

[larry merlau]

wont be playun with ipe fer awahle huh..its some awfull stuff,, but you made fine set out of it there allen looks good and in afew years it will have aged just nicly..:thumb::thumb:

[Bill Satko]

Allen, do you think you have enough chairs in your backyard?:D

[allen levine]

nah, I figure my backyard is just too small for the amount of chairs I want.
Just some I cant part with.The rest Im working on.
Thats around 12-13 chairs under that tarp, another 12 chairs in the shed,2 5 foot fold up benches, and I have no clue how many of those camp style chairs in a bag I have above my head in the garage. Maybe 6-10?
I make it a mandantory rule now, if I have a bbq or party in my yard, whatever chair you sit in, you have to take home.
My wife has told me shes glad I dont like to make kiddie swing sets.:rofl:

[allen levine]

wont be playun with ipe fer awahle huh..its some awfull stuff,, but you made fine set out of it there allen looks good and in afew years it will have aged just nicly..:thumb::thumb:

Ill replace that swinging bench next summer with one made out of ipe and redwood. After that, unless someone wants to pay me alot of moolah, Ill skip this beautiful exotic wood for something a bit easier to play with.

[allen levine]

thanx for the nice comments, I did take something with this build.
I overcame my fear of lack of knowledge of mortise and tenon jointery and how to apply them.
Its like a big puzzle, and if youre numbers are right, patience will eventually help one get through.
Im not a patient builder, I like quick turnouts, but I really enjoyed this.(although Id prefer less dense wood to work with next time)

[larry merlau]

well allen i would say you probally couldnt find much harder wood to work that was easy to get ahold of,, you done a fine job and learned from it as well.. who said a old dog cant learn new tricks??? you did and your really old:rofl:

[Jason Tuinstra]

Allen, it turned out great. I'm very impressed with the overall look. Nice job.

[allen levine]

I managed to assemble the rocking chair today.
The glue is gonna need alot of time, its 100% humidity outside, so I wont start final sanding and coating till next week.
The slats, both back and seat are PT, dyed walnut, closest I had, looked the best to me. Color contrast with lighter stains took too much away from the ipe's rich color.
If I had the stock, I would have done the entire chair in ipe.
Maybe next time. Maybe not, I do believe IM done with ipe for a bit.
some pics of all my ipe builds this summer, and the rocking chair. Im finally happy with the joints, all fit snug and smoothly.
Patience, gets it done.
(the rocking chair is substantially heavier than the adirondack chair.
I could barely lift it off and on the work table)

[Rennie Heuer]

You've been a busy fella this summer Allen! The rocker looks great!

[larry merlau]

ready to use it after all the ones he has made this summer,,:thumb: lloks good there allen and i dont think your hardware you were carryun around with ya yesterday hurt your production on bit:):thumb:

[allen levine]

thanx fellas.

[Tom Niemi]

Lets see here, 10 days from beginning to look for plans to final glueup :eek:
what a go-getter :thumb: Your turning into the chair master. Looks good Allen

Tom

[Russ Massery]

Looks great Allen. I've heard Ipe kinda hard tools have you found this to be the case. Are you going to put a finish on this?

[allen levine]

Messmers UV plus for the Ipe. I will coat it 2-3 times a year, in order to keep it looking rich and dark.
Mccloskeys Man O War exterior varnish for the PT slats. Twice a year.
The ipe is tough on blades and drill bits.
I bought a 60 dollar Freud blade for this build, the most Ive spent on a TS blade yet, and it seems to have handled it with little burning. Jigsaws, I use metal blades, they seem to cut better. Drills, Ive used only Dewalt hardened tapered bits, only cracked one between the table, four chairs and this rocker.(although this drill bit is toast now)


Tom-its really not a difficult build, and the plans are pretty direct.
Wish I had a bandsaw and router table, but using what I have right now is my only choice.
Ill have a new tablesaw within 2 months.(I cant knock the 99 dollar Ryobi TS. Ive ripped 10s of thousands of linear feet of all kinds of woods on it, and it still works great. The fence is a bit week, but then again its only a 99 dollar TS)

IM looking foward to building a cherry credenza in the near future.Im figuring Ill be back in western NY state within a couple months, thinking about paying a visit to pulaski Ny on my way back home cause those cherry prices look pretty good for me.

[allen levine]

rocking chair is finally finished, sanded, and topcoated.

The wife said theres no way shes giving that away to any friends.
(givem one of those adirondack chairs she said)

I guess eventually Ill be making another rocker.

Some final pics.

Just wanted to post the pic of the chair I used as a model.
Modifying was necessary due to lack of machinery, as stated, but the magazines chair is a fine piece.
Also I put a SS screw into most joints where I could keep the screw on the inside or back, so it isnt as noticable.

A big thanx to Tom, cause I had given that magazine away along with a few earlier issues to someone who enjoys reading them.

[Tom Niemi]

No thanks needed to me allen, more thanks to you for taking us thru the entire process from beginning to end product. showing us how, no matter if you have an extensive collection of tools, hardly any tools, or anywhere between, projects can be built! This is a great project with a great finish :thumb::thumb:. Thanks for sharing your experience!

Tom

[Norman Hitt]

rocking chair is finally finished, sanded, and topcoated.

The wife said theres no way shes giving that away to any friends.
(givem one of those adirondack chairs she said)

I guess eventually Ill be making another rocker.

Looks Good Allen, :thumb: 'n it sounds like you scored some Points with the LOYL which is "REALLY GOOD".:D:D:D:D:thumb:

[allen levine]

my wife says Ive reached a level where she feels I can do alot of work around the house now, something I told her Id never be talented enough to do.
Her build list first:
2 wooden radiator covers, cherry
1 credenza, cherry, Im thinking as soon as I get a new tablesaw
a new dining table, wood choice is mine, she said she'd buy the chairs.
1 shelving unit to go next to my kitchen to hold nicknacks, I had built one, but its the first thing I built besides a chair, so its not that good.

Her to do list as far as tools are concerned:
rip down wall on stairs and take away the 1970s look, and put in a wood bannister.
Put up a wall we took down near the bathroom, cause it doesnt look good to her anymore
Pull down all wallpaper in front room, repaint neutral colors, paint stairway, paint kitchen, paint back room(rip down wallpaper borders)
Pull off all mouldings and after wood floor is installed(she will hire someone cause my back couldnt take a floor installation,and I lack the talent to do the right job) reinstall all oak mouldings in front room, stairway, hallways, kitchen, and back room. Both base and crown moldings.


When I finish with that, she wants the upstairs bedroom painted, the office painted, new moldings, including ripping out the window moldings and installing new, all oak, all stained to her color choice, and all gloss polyurethaned.

Throw out old desk up in office and build new desk, wraparound desk around 2 walls, and old shelving unit built into attic office, rip down and build nice oak or cherry doors and shelves to match the new desk Im puttingin there.

Then she said she will be happy.:D

[Rennie Heuer]

Welcome, Allen, to the "Long To-Do List" Club. From the length of your list I'd say you were bucking for a lifetime membership.:D

[allen levine]

I hit a snag in my no buy builds.

I used the last of the ipe,(didnt save it for the swinging bench cause I needed 7 foot lengths, and 6 feet was all I had, never thought of this before)
So I measured up what I had, and cut out a bunch of mortises and tenons to make a cushion/cooler chest. It will fit the cooler, or Ill store cushions in it, put a cushion on it if I need, it can be a bench also.
Thought Id dado out the center of each rail and run some 1/4 inch redwood.
It was a nice combo, ipe and redwood, but I dont think after slicing up the redwood I have, Ill have enough to cover all four sides and then a top.
Ya think using red cedar on the back and maybe mahogany on the top will look too foolish?Using what I have laying around. (Id much rather have some beautiful white cedar, but I aint payin for nuthing right now, just playing around until I get serious)

[Rennie Heuer]

Allen,

Do you ever sleep?

[allen levine]

health issues are keeping me close to home these past few months
I have alot of free time.(it could be alot worse, I could be posting pics of everything I build)

[allen levine]

will recut the rails for snug fit ofcourse.
I had to slice all the 3/4 inch thick stock down to a bit more than a 1/4, so I doubled my board footage.
I do not have any redwood or red cedar for the top, and I wont cut the lumber thinner than 3/4 since Im certain this box will support people sitting on it.
Ill figure out something.

Here the latest pic, I had to alternate redwood with red cedar to make a pattern, cause I didnt have enough redwood, the back will be a different pattern according to what slats I have left.
Some of the redwood doesnt look like the other, kinda weird cause both boards before cutting were identical looking.(this is a big deck box)
Not looking to put any one to sleep, just cutting wood and making alot of saw dust.(around 20 lbs of sawdust in the trash just from this cutting)

[allen levine]

ran out of wood, even pressure treated.(I recut the ipe rails so the side slats all fit snug)
Used 2x4s, cedar and pressure treated, to make the bottom.
Rabbetted out the ends, used a cleat screwed into bottom rail, and attached them.(need to replace end piece eventually)
Its smells great, with all the cedar slats and floor slats.
A few pics of what I did, how it looks. Colorful, but its only redwood and red cedar, I believe when I eventually sand and finish the color will be more even.

Have nothing to build top with.
Lowes has nice 5/4 cedar decking, cheap, so I might head over there one day and buy one 12 foot piece, have to invest something to finish this box.)or leave it as a really big planter, hehehe.
The thought of having to drive and lean against the car seat, doesnt "sit" well with the shingles and my back. Just touching it is like shooting a nail gun through it. For those that never had it, dont worry, eventually, most likely, statistics show, and boy oh boy, its just lovely.
Im sure Im going to be sweet as sugar back at work tomorrow.
until then, I have to go figure out a way to make my backyard larger.

Ive got to put this aside if I dont get any more wood.
Ive been asked to build a stand for the drumpad set from RockBand. The set cracked, and its not cheap to replace the set, and it cant be glued together.
Not exactly master woodworking, but the challenge is just as much fun.

[allen levine]

finished the top, attached it, just another ipe, white cedar, red cedar, redwood, pressure treated box.
Im not sure why he climbed in, I had to let him out, I needed someone to help me lift it onto the table.
Hope I get my tablesaw soon.

(I had to buy 2 pieces of white cedar decking to finish off the cover.I also have to purchase lid brackets to prevent it from slamming down on someones fingers)
Ipe and white cedar make a nice contrast.

There isnt a piece of ipe left I can build anything with. My blades and bits are happy.

[Rennie Heuer]

Hey Allen............................................. ................ Turned out nice.:thumb:

[Tom Niemi]

Wow Allen, I was'nt quit sure how this one was going to come out, with all the multitudes of wood, But I got to tell you, it came out really nice :thumb:. I really like it. Good job of using up your wood. Now that your out of wood, what next :dunno:

Tom

[allen levine]

The cold weather is coming. Once the garage temps drop below 50 during the day, its hard for me to work too long, the fingers just dont want to bend after a while.
My new TS should be here any day, and Im picking up a cheapy, real cheapy Ryobi router/table combo off of someone near me tomorrow. Used, but only once, so Ill save 35 bucks and the tax.(I want to try working with a router upside down before I build my own table)
I have to build a sled for the new TS and I already started a stand for a drumset pad set for the RockBand 2 video game.(Ive got alot of Oak ply and 1x3, 1x4 oak laying around)Small project, but will keep me busy.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Way to wring a final project out of what was left over. Anything to purge yourself from the ipe, huh? :p The box came out looking nice.

Here's hoping your new saw helps take your mind off the health issues. You're gonna enjoy it. I do recommend buying or making a zero-clearance plate for it. It will help make all the ripping you do (especially the thin stuff) easier, safer, and with cleaner cuts.

[allen levine]

this flatwork doesnt deserve its own thread.
But its great for me to practice with MT joints , got used to struggling with the ipe, the chisel bit goes through oak like butter.
So I gotta let if dry, sand it a little, heres the Rock Band drumpad stand.
For those that dont know what this is, its a drum set that goes with the guitar for the video games all the kids want.

25163
I learned that once the kids, no matter what age, from 5-55, start playing this at a bbq or party, its still going strong at 1am. I finally figured out how to pull the plug on it this summer so the neighbors didnt call the police.(we have it set up on a 10 foot screen with a digital projector)
I picked up the microphone and do my version of the song, that usually clears the backyard in 1 minute.

[Paul Brubacher]

Just did a google search on Ipe wood. It weighs 69 to 80 lb. per cubic foot. That means it will not float on water.

One of the woodworking sites had an article comparing Ipe to metal. Sorry, but I didn't bookmark the site.

The MccFeeley's site emphasis on square drive screws is interesting. In Canada these are the norm. They are Robertson screws and are much better tan the Philips.

Just recently I noticed that the handle of the red handled Robertson screw driver is much more worn than any of the 9 or 10 other drivers in the set.