When did woodworkers become machinists??

Jeff Horton

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I saw this on Woodnet. For all I know AHill is a member here too. I want to make it clear this is not aimed at him personally. But what the heck is going on with Woodworkers try to cut wood to precisions in the .005 or less range??

.... I checked my fence and it seems to be bowed a tad as well - wider at the ends compared to the middle. Could this be the cause of my poor cuts? I'm thinking I could put some shims between the UMHW and the fence tube to fix it. I got better cuts with my older contractor's saw. It's only around 0.004" difference. Should I try and fix it or just declare victory and move on?

He went on explain that the wood was 12-16" long and it was .004 narrower in the middle than at the ends. :eek: My tape measures nor none of my rulers will measure that close. What the heck is wrong with woodworkers?? The average tolerance in a metal shop is probably +/- .005 with +/-.01 not being uncommon at all. (With some precision shops excluded of course). I am not sure who has convinced woodworkers that we need this type of precision. It's just ridiculous! And it seems to be that more and more woodworkers are falling for this and buying precision measuring tools trying to set their machines within .001. Folks. they are capable of that kind of repeatable consistency and even if they were it is totally overkill. It's just wood and it will move more than that with humidity changes. :doh:
 
I couldn't agree more. I am fortunate enough to have spent the last three weeks working for a cabinetmaker. We had a discussion about what sort of accuracy should be expected of a wood shop and his comments were the same as yours. His comment was sort of (paraphrased):

"I can set the table saw rip fence index line on a mark, tap it a tad either way, and still not have moved 1/64, and you'll never see the change on the finished product, so why are some woodworkers trying to measure thousandths??"

The only place where I get a bit (ok - a lot) fussy is on 45' mitres for picture frames. I guess if I ever get to make any fine furniture I'll be a bit fussy there too, but not fussy to a thous...

cheers eh?
 
Jeff, I was about 0.0035" away from saying you're wrong, but I decided not to split hairs. :p

I agree with you. I do try for as much accuracy as I can get, but I try not to get carried away.
 
With a dynamic medium like wood, that will change dimension by ten or twenty thousandths overnight with a humidy change, it's definitely overkill to try for 0.004 (or better) accuracy. The old timers are probably rolling over in their graves, laughing at (some of) us!

Remember:

[size=+1]Measure it with a micrometer;
Mark it with chalk; and,
Cut it with an axe![/size]
 
What most folks don't understand is that wood is a dynamic medium. It changes at will. You rip a piece and release tension within the wood and there's nothing you can do to stop if from bending or twisting. This bending or twisting can cause it to put force in such a way that if there is any movement in the blade or the fence, it won't be a perfect rip.

A few thousandths? So what?


Metal, however, is a more stable medium IMHO.

I don't do metal.

Those who expect perfection set themselves up for dissatisfaction IMHO.

I do the best I can with what I have. If it pleases me fine....If it pleases the recipient....I was successful.
 
One of my pet peeves as well. I use a set of digital calipers just because they are easier to read quickly but I sure don't care about .5mm (1/50th") either way.

I think that there are some people who enjoy buying, tuning and setting machines up at least as much as making dust. I don't have any beef with them if it makes them happy but its not my cup of tea.
 
I taught a class in my shop one time with one of the students being a machinist. First thing I did was take his dial caliper away from him and let him use only a tape measure. You gotta remember you are working WITH the wood, you are definately not in command all of the time.
 
...You gotta remember you are working WITH the wood, you are definately not in command all of the time.
I may just have to make a sign saying that, and put it up in my shop.

Very wise words, Jim. You oughta be a teacher, or somethin'. :rofl:

(Good to see ya pop in, Boney.) :wave:
 
Agreed! I got a good chuckle when a few days ago I saw a quote of .00001 that's 1 - ONE HUNDRED THOUSANDTH of an inch!!! give me a break...

I think internet forums had a lot to do with this phenomenon. The worst part is folks just starting out are lead to believe they have to make their cuts to .001.

There's a time and a place for everything, seating up machines to +- a couple of thou is worth the effort, trying to make all your cuts to those tolerance is an exercise in futility. Sure takes a lot of the fun out of woodworking.

Mike
 
I have to laugh.
I actually got some framing done today on the shop. My son James was helping me out with the job. I did the high work and MOst of the nailing, he did the cutting on my miter stand and saw. We did things from direct measurement, ie hold the board up where it needed to go, mark it then cut to match. He was stressing over the angles and I told him " It is framing James, if you're off a degree or two it won't matter that much.
 
Thanks. Lots of good points made in this thread.

First I will agree on the angles. Your have to be extremely close on miters for a boxes, picture frames etc. I have made a couple and was surprised at the precision required. (read - I had a hard time)

The other thing that just drives me nuts but I rarely say what I really want to say, is setting a fence parallel to within .001. Sure you can set it that close. But I know that that fences are not made to that level of precision and are not going to lock within .001 each that. That takes some serious money to get a machine to that level of accuracy.
 
heck, most engine shops only work to .01 to .005.....and some of `em spin 10k rpm....trying to see 1/100th of an inch is just a tad overboard. 1/64th is finer than most museum pieces...
some folks would rather lament their equipment than their skill set.
 
Now, now, gentlemen,

Don't be too hard on us doofi (doofuses?) ;)

Maybe you've forgotten what's it's like to start out, or maybe it's been just a little while. Me, I remember holding 2x4s in my hand, and trying to hit a line with a skilsaw. Being brought face to face with my own clumsiness is a humiliating experience, the kind I never forget. As far as that goes, it wasn't that long ago that I bought four preformed table legs at the home depot, skilsawed a piece of 3/8ths plywood to hold them together, nailed it up, and called it a microwave stand.

So when I started learning, I thought it was just me. But I asked everyone I knew for advice, and found out part of the trouble was indeed my tools. Forget the old "it ain't the arrows, it's the indian" stuff. It *was* my tools. My table saw fence wouldn't even lock down. The durn thing almost killed me one day. So, I went out and spent an absolute fortune on a new table saw. I was in heaven with my new TS 3650, even though I couldn't believe the cost.

Things got really good for awhile. But guess what? After a year or two, things still weren't perfect. The fence was good enough, and I spent several hours over many days realining the blade to the miter slot. Things got better. But I would notice a jointed board wouldn't stay flush with the fence. I knew that the next step towards actual good work meant an after market fence. I decided on the incra. But it, too, cost a fortune!

Might as well have been gold when it arrived in boxes. I was sure I'd paid its weight in gold! And I carefully, carefully assembled it. Took me two days to get it right. Finally, finally, I was ready for a test cut! This, after years and years of solitary work trying to Just Make One Straight Cut! ;) Ran a piece of maple through. Got out my calipers, thinking they'd say 2.000 at one end, 2.000 in the middle, and 2.000 at the other! ;)

Of course they didn't. But here's my point: at that moment, after years of trying and failing, and not giving up and trying and failing and spending what was to me a fortune and still failing, I was in complete despair... and if someone told me at the time it was pointless and don't worry about it... well, there's a reason I'm also known as "The father of curses!" ;)

So, please be kind to us doofi! ;) Most of us are just trying to make someone nice for once! And if we try to get our setups within thousandths, it's likely because everything we've ever made is skewed or crooked, and certainly clumsy! ;)

As Jerry's my witness, this is a true story! ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
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I recently purchased a Wixey Fence measurement system. I cannot seem to get any file to load, so here is a raw album of the Wixey install

I thought I needed one. Woodcraft had them on sale for $99 WITH a free Wixey angle measure thingy. I wanted the angle measurement thing, so my math says the fence measurement system was $60.

So In installed the fence measure thing.

Well it really drives me nuts trying to find the fractions of an inch I have lived with for 60 years. I do a lot of measurements that are like 2 7/16 plus. that means to me I want to include the line.

I use a square for up to 12" and my 10 ft tape for over a foot to set the fence.

The wixey fence measure measurement system does work. I had to write down all of the decimal equivalents. Like what us 7/16 is decimal ???

I did find the Wixey fence system very handy when I made the sandpaper box and needed to increment the dados by 1 3/8 after each cut. It has an "absolute" and "increment" mode.

But a series of lines would have worked just like they always have.

I have a 20 year old craftsman saw with a 24/24 align-a-rip fence. It seems to be within tolerances that I can see. I know it is NOT perfect. But for now it is working for me.

I do use a dial caliper. I like being able to see the pointer is just a little past 3/4". It is incremented in 1/64s. I think this is close enough for me.

I have watched the real craftsman and a Biese fence and a tap left or right seems to work.

I plan to get a SawStop later this year. I have will definitely be getting a Biese style fence. I have heard very good things about the SawStop fence. But that is a different topic and something I will look at at AWF in August.
 
Oh yea,

I happened to google HTC fences and found this quote from Tod over on that other forum...

11/9/2005 i wouldn`t get rid of the bies. they`re the fence the others are copying for a reason. do you really need the "micro" feature? i had a vega pro fence once for about a week replaced it with a bies. never looked back sometimes gimmicks keep you from cutting wood.......... tod

the bold is mine... This really sums it up for me...
 
But here's my point: at that moment, after years of trying and failing, and not giving up and trying and failing and spending what was to me a fortune and still failing, I was in complete despair... and if someone told me at the time it was pointless and don't worry about it...

Unfortunately lots and lots of folks fall into the same trap and it gets perpetuated every day in the rags and internet forums.

A long long time ago, a finish carpenter taught me the secret to good looking work, "it's not about the accuracy, it's about the fit". He showed me how to use a story stick and my 'fit" immediately improved along with the appearance of my work.

Mike
 
How do the fanatics of accuracy (you know, to the thousandth of an inch) that measure wood with micrometers and dial indicators explain the excellent craftsmanship of woodworkers who worked before the invention of these excellent metal working measuring devices?
 
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