Interior Dog Gate Questions

Long (and expensive) story short, one of our dogs has decided she wants to kill one of our other dogs. Because of this, we have always kept the dogs separated while we're not home. (All three dogs stay indoors when we're gone.) Until about a month ago, we used a child safety gate across the hallway, but recently she has figured out how to go over the gate. It's time for a larger, built-in gate.

I intend to build something similar to this, styled and stained to match the solid wood raised panel interior doors throughout our house:



or



I intend to hang it and latch it just like an interior door, except the bottom of the gate will be about 5" off the ground (to clear the base molding in the hallway) and the top will be about 5' 6" above that. The gate is going across the hall, and not in an existing door frame, so I need to also attach the side parts of a door "frame" on opposite sides of the hall to support the hinges and the strike plate.

My questions:

Poplar or select grade pine? I think the existing woodwork is pine, so it'll probably be easier to match the color if I use pine. (The existing stain is Minwax "Puritan Pine" shade, and I plan to use the same.) Poplar would likely be a bit nicer to work with. Maple would be nice, but I think it's out of my budget.

Suggestions for attaching the "frame" to the hallway walls? The location isn't critical, so I should be able to anchor the hinge side to a stud. Should I go with lag bolts or would long deck screws suffice? Either will be countersunk and plugged.

The mortise and tenon joints for the vertical bars will be a bit tricky on the underneath side of the arched part. I'm thinking of doing away with the shoulders on the tenons for those joints, and cutting the mortise to the outside dimensions of the bars. (But only on the top. The all the other M&T joints would have a 1/4" tenon shoulder typically.) Any pitfalls to this idea?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Sounds good to me. You could always place spacers between the top slats to make
it look like tenons. I have done this before.

Two cents worth

I have much more experience as a dog owner and DIY carpenter than as a woodworker, so I'll leave your question about the tenons to others.

I think long deck screws would be OK to mount the frame, but I would run one or two screws in each hinge all the way into the stud as well.

As for the choice of wood, I'd choose pine over poplar, but neither of those will stand up well to scratching by a good size dog. I don't know whether the staining would work out OK, but I'd try to use maple for at least the stiles and the frame (where most of the scratching is likely to occur) and the softer stuff for the slats.

I would also try to eliminate the 5" gap at the bottom; I'd worry that the dog would try to get underneath it and get stuck. Could you make the frame the same thickness as the baseboard and hang the door closer to the floor?

Good luck.

Tony

Your dogs called, they want Bronze Doors.

Frank Townend said:

Your dogs called, they want Bronze Doors.

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you should be more explicite ther frank the lady dog called,,she's the one thats got the attitude

I am not a dog owner, but why not get the advice of a dog trainer? It may be more expensive than the door, but may be, it would spare you a lot work.

Not because of the door, ( that I'm sure will be fun for you) but if this behaviour continues what would be next? Separated kennels? Separated walking times? Having one of them killed or wounded, and having to put it down? Having to remember wether you closed that door or not?

Without going to the extrem of calling "The dog whisperer" I think that you should attack the source of the problem. The door should be something provisional while you work on the definite solution.
Please notice, it was something that seemed to work but didn't solve the problem, only avoided it for a time, now you will be repeating the approach but not solving the REAL problem.

And after that, if you want to build that door, do it with the confidence of being able to leave it open and that you do it because you want a door there.

Sorry Vaughn, I'm pretty concious that this may be professional deformation of mine,but in my job I always have to fight against solutions that do not solve problems, just disguises them as being "solved" and sorry again, you were asking for ww advice instead of what I just gave you. but I thought I should do it.

Vaughn, I understand your problem, as we've had a foster dog here for 2 years now, and she doesn't get along with our 8 year old girl. Can you say b----- fight? Twice in the middle of the night, LOML has had to take our girl in for stitches. Not cheap at the emergency vet. We play baby gate city to keep them separated. Our girl will still charge the gate at times. You can tell it's going to happen by the way they lock eyes and croutch.
I'll be interested to see how you proceed and tackle your "fix". Jim.

Vaughn McMillan said:

Poplar or select grade pine? ...
Suggestions for attaching the "frame" to the hallway walls? ...
Any suggestions are welcome.

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Is this door likely to be scratched up by the dog? If so, go cheap, as it's going to get beat up soon. Or consider putting a brass plate (you see them at the borg for entrance doors) along the base of the door.

I would suggest the first door, as it looks more open and less obstructive. However, I would also suggest matching the doors that are already in the house.

Also, I would consider arranging a way for you to latch the door open. Do you want it closed all the time even when you're home? I doubt it. But if it swings free, it might not stay open. Using a conventional doorknob might actually be a problem then, since it'd possibly impact the hall wall. However, it could be a simple as putting a couple of BIG rare earth magnets in the door and a corresponding steel screw in board mounted along the wall.

Finally, by those drawings this door is 31" wide. Is this going to be a problem for any large furniture or items that might need to move down this hall in future?

best wishes,
...art

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.

Tony Maio said:

...I would also try to eliminate the 5" gap at the bottom; I'd worry that the dog would try to get underneath it and get stuck. Could you make the frame the same thickness as the baseboard and hang the door closer to the floor?

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All three dogs are big -- the small one is over 50 pounds. Still, I'll look into the possibility of lowering the gate some.

Chuck Thoits said:

How old is the existing trim? Your going to have a real hard time matching the sun fade of the old trim. ...

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This is in a pretty dark hallway that doesn't get much natural light. The trim was stained about 4 years ago right before we moved in. I added a couple of trim strips around Christmas to beef up the child gate, and the match was still close enough for us.

Toni Ciuraneta said:

I am not a dog owner, but why not get the advice of a dog trainer? ...

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We did, and her advice was to keep them separate. The female wants very much to be the Alpha dog when we're not here, and this is her way of trying to do so.

Art Mulder said:

Is this door likely to be scratched up by the dog? If so, go cheap, as it's going to get beat up soon...

I would suggest the first door, as it looks more open and less obstructive. However, I would also suggest matching the doors that are already in the house.

Also, I would consider arranging a way for you to latch the door open. Do you want it closed all the time even when you're home?...

Finally, by those drawings this door is 31" wide. Is this going to be a problem for any large furniture or items that might need to move down this hall in future?

best wishes,
...art

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Yet, scratches are a possibility. The version with the panels on the bottom would probably show the scratches more, but it would make it less likely that a dog foot could get caught. LOML hasn't seen the sketches yet, so her opinion will probably weigh into the decision, too.

I'm already planning on a magnetic doorstop/catch plate that will hold it open when we're home.

By my math, the gate is 36" wide...28" + 4" + 4". I'm guessing you saw the 1 1/2" label (the thickness, but that's subject to change a little).

Thanks again guys, and keep the ideas coming. I suspect I'll get started on this thing this weekend. (The hand is healing up well.)

Vaughn McMillan said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.

All three dogs are big -- the small one is over 50 pounds.

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But how big are their heads?
Also to consider with this scenario is you are more apt to have a horrendously scratched up floor if your gate doesn't go all the way down since chances are pretty good she will try to make the space under the door big enough to get through by digging. There is a good chance your walls will end up scratched to if she really wants to get through.
Aesthetically I like the first gate better... more airy and all that, but realistically the second is probably your better option as far as her not going through it. It's amazing what determined dogs can do.
If all else fails you can always crate her when you aren't home. Everyone will be safe and your house won't get wrecked as a bonus!

If youre going into studs, which will be a must, since the dog will be able to take out a hinge not secured enough, I would go with 1/4 to 3/8 lag screws, set deep into the wood.(all holes predrilled)
Its what Ive used on the heavy flat screen tvs in my house with the very heavy cantelever(whatever that word is) mounts, and its very secure.
Mounting into the door/gate I would use similar thcikness lag screws, length depending upon how you mount, to edge or face.
I personally wouldnt use typical wood screws. I once had a stray dog rip my screen door down and broke into my mud room, he ripped the screen door right out of the wood frame held with wood screws.
The dog would need to take down the wall with him if there are 3/8 inch thick lag screws.
Id also opt for a type of sliding bolt lock, no keys necessary, so thats also secure enough that no 50 pound dog can break it down.

Vaughn....

I'm suddenly stuck by a memory of Bill Lantry. If you go through his posts you'll see a long post all about the work he put in to put a fence in his back yard.

... wait for it ...

and the dog cleared it with one jump the first time it was put back there.

So. Are you really sure that it will be tall enough?

...art

ps: you're right, I saw the 1-1/2" label and assumed it was width, but I realize now it was thickness.

Art Mulder said:

...So. Are you really sure that it will be tall enough? ...

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I'm pretty certain this particular dog won't be able to clear the 5 1/2 to 6 foot height. As I recall, Bill's got an Australian Shepherd -- a much more agile escape artist.

Strange thing is that for a year and a half, a little 3' baby gate kept them separated fine. It was only after the victim learned that he could knock the gate down that the aggressive one started jumping over it.

Kalea, you have a good point about them getting their head under the gate. I'm more concerned about the "victim" dog putting his head under the gate and getting it bitten by the unsocial one. I'll be seriously considering putting it lower.

Lumber pic would be ash. It will hold up better to the abuse of the puppies jumping on it. My huskee is proof of this. I built my gat useing spring loaded hinges so the gate open into the room where the dog is. Good wood screws should be plenty to keep the gat on the wall.

Vaughn McMillan said:

Yet, scratches are a possibility.

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Probably a certainty.

I've had dogs that were determined to ruin things, or just determined.

We went duck hunting one time and left our less 'ducky' dog in a crate in the camper. Came back at lunch to find that she had escaped the crate and proceeded to tear every blind/window treatment off of the windows in the camper and made a heck of a mess in the process. Couldn't get mad at her, cause she just wanted to be with us, but still, it's easy to underestimate the determination of a determined dog.

My new pup seems just as determined, but fortunately I've learned to put my shoes in the closet when I'm not wearing them

Vaughn, I like the design of your gate. I would worry about leaving too much of a gap at the bottom, but when you choose to live with dogs, you've got to take the scratches in the floor as part of the deal. Maybe you could rig up a floor protector right near the gate on both sides?

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Here's the plan...

We're going with the panel version, about 1" or so off the floor. The hallway is carpeted, with a runner (leftover carpet scrap) over that. If the dog tears up the runner, oh well. We can live with scratches to the gate, and they can always be touched up with a refinishing job if need be. Al's suggestion of ash is a good one, but it's pricey out here, so I'm going to use pine. (Budget's a bit tight right now after various vet bills.)

I'm off to go unload the two 100+ pound chunks of eucalyptus from the back of the pickup, and go make a late-night lumber run to the Borg, so I can beat the Saturday morning crowd.

I'll document the gate build, so I can show Allen he's not the only person here who's had to re-cut a part or two.

Vaughn McMillan said:

I'm off to go unload the two 100+ pound chunks of eucalyptus from the back of the pickup, and go make a late-night lumber run to the Borg, so I can beat the Saturday morning crowd.

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Nice stealth gloat, btw....

Brent, I'm a life long dog owner and love em like they're my kids....BUT, if one of my dogs was so aggressive that I felt it would actually kill the other, I would get rid of the dog.

Mike Barnes said:

Brent, I'm a life long dog owner and love em like they're my kids....BUT, if one of my dogs was so aggressive that I felt it would actually kill the other, I would get rid of the dog.

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Believe me, the thought has crossed our minds. On the other hand, we don't feel it's really fair to her, since she was here first. She's trying to be an Alpha dog to a newcomer who doesn't understand "dog language" or "pack manners". The one who keeps getting beat up (Phoenix) is deaf, and if I were to attribute a human condition to him, I'd say he's autistic. (He's our special needs boy.) He doesn't react at all to warning signals from the other dogs. He's kind of off in his own little world. He's very loving, but he's a strange unit.

The aggressor (Sasha) knows we're in charge and is very obedient when we're at home, but she's got a herding mentality and wants to control the world when we're away. Things were going smoothly for the past year and a half, until recently when Phoenix figured out how to knock the baby gate down. Then when I beefed the baby gate up is when Sasha started going over the top of it. The new gate should handle things. Until then, she gets to stay isolated in the laundry room when we're not home.

Mike Barnes said:

Brent, I'm a life long dog owner and love em like they're my kids....BUT, if one of my dogs was so aggressive that I felt it would actually kill the other, I would get rid of the dog.

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Yeah, I think Vaughn is in a bit of a tough spot, but I think he's got a pretty good solution he's working on.

Our previous 2 kids got along great, but they would 'rough house' quite a bit. Never any real growling or biting, but there was one time that one of them did manage to get about a 12 inch long gash cut through her fur. It looked like someone just took a zipper and opened her fur coat. No bleeding, and it didn't cut through the flesh, just the fur. Rushed to the vet and they sewed her right up.

We are down to one dog now (unless you count the cat, which my wife insists is a deformed dog), and probably will be for another year or so.

At that time we'll have to go through the process of making sure the dogs get along, so that should be fun, especially with this rambunctious dominant little girl we have now....