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Thread: Groves & Sons 18" split-nut backsaw

  1. #1
    Alan DuBoff is offline Former Member (by the member's request)
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    Groves & Sons 18" split-nut backsaw

    I haven't bought any saws in quite a while, but have had my eye out for a couple larger ones. I stumbled upon this saw on the big auction bay on the net, which didn't get bid on as the seller didn't take paypal. I contacted the seller and bought this for his starting bid of $15, plus $8 shipping. Had to wait a couple weeks for my check to arrive and clear, but was worth it to me.

    This is quite a nice saw, has the classic Sheffield style handle that was popular amongst several saw makers with the flat bottom and lamb's tongue.

    Teeth are cut at 10 points, back needs to be lifted back up a tad, but this is a very nice saw that is going in my user collection. Blade is quite straight.

    Sometimes there are still decent deals on the big bay on the net...

    (linky pic)


  2. #2
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    Nice looking saw and sounds like a good deal to me!

    Thats one thing I really want to buy is some good handsaws. But just not had time to educate myself enough to get serious about them yet. Have a couple I really like that I bought from one of the guys over at Woodnet.
    God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
    the good fortune to run into the ones I do,
    and the eyesight to tell the difference.


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  3. #3
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    Nice saw, Alan!

    Very clean handle for its age. Very ncie...Mike
    Wenzloff & Sons Sawmakers

  4. #4
    Alan DuBoff is offline Former Member (by the member's request)
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    Mike,

    It is a clean handle for it's age, but more importantly the back has the bevel along the bottom edge. It is my understanding that the older saws had this feature, but it was dropped with newer saws, in favor of efficiency of manufacturing. I can't remember when it was exactly, but seems that somewhere around 1850-1875 most of the saw makers in England stopped using the bevels on the bottom of the back, do you know when that was?

    This saw is nice shape, in all counts, saw nuts are still pretty clean, as-in the handle. The teeth are not too bad, but could use a slight jointing before being sharpened.

    Jeff, getting harder and harder to find the nicer saws, but they're still out there. I might have some saws for sale/trade, I certainly have my share of them and don't need all of them...but somehow my saws are like my children... I traded a couple away not long ago...still have some great saws that are not in my user quiver (not that I even use all of them, but I have to have a quiver doncha know... ).

  5. #5
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    Hi Alan--no real idea when. For Disston, it was before 1900 I suspect. I would have thought England hung onto it longer. We do both in regards to beveling. Depends on what we are copying. Kits are nearly never beveled--tis a time thing.

    Take care, Mike
    Wenzloff & Sons Sawmakers

  6. #6
    Alan DuBoff is offline Former Member (by the member's request)
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    Well, I know that some saws had a slight bevel on them, around the late 1800s, I just pulled one out of my chest. This is not a split-nut, but it is late 1880s per the stamp. This type of bevel is nothing as refined as the Groves, although I do own a couple Spear & Jacksons that I would consider a closer match.

    But AFAIK, Disston was never noted as adding craftsmanship to his saws. He was certainly noted for making quality saws at an affordable price, and nobody would be ashamed to own a Disston, they do fine work, IMO. I have quite a few that I really like. This one from the 1880s is a very nice example of a Disston, 12" x 2 5/8" blade. Nice solid saw.

    I'd like to find another matching saw for this Groves, doesn't need to be Groves, just similar...and then I could file one rip and one crosscut. This one is exceptionally nice. I'm gonna leave it 10 points and go with a coarse tooth pattern, as someone I know would reccomend. I need to tighten the handle a tad, if possible.

  7. #7
    Alan DuBoff is offline Former Member (by the member's request)
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    With the help of Simon Barley I have this dated to somewhere before 1850. He thinks somewhere between 1840-1850 given the style of ampersand used and handle with smaller nuts.

    I would say not in bad shape for 150+ years young!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    With the help of Simon Barley I have this dated to somewhere before 1850. He thinks somewhere between 1840-1850 given the style of ampersand used and handle with smaller nuts.

    I would say not in bad shape for 150+ years young!

    now that`s impressive!
    [SIZE="1"] associated with several importers and manufacturers.[/SIZE]

  9. #9
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    Yep, there was a long period bevels were about 60 degrees, evolved into 45 degrees, which makes the bevel shorter. There was also a period where bevels were near non-existent.

    Here's a Kenyon large tenon--which also demonstrates handle evolution--with pretty much a non-existent bevel. This saw is from about the 1750s or a little prior.



    Other than the obvious handle shape--a topic for another day--the ever so slight bevel I think was more from filing the bottom edge than purposeful beveling.

    The Groves is much more elegant.

    Take care, Mike
    Wenzloff & Sons Sawmakers

  10. #10
    Alan DuBoff is offline Former Member (by the member's request)
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    Mike,

    I like the looks of that handle though!

    That is one most interesting boss (I think that's what they call the area where the saw nuts hold the handle). Interesting how they placed the saw nuts on there (spacing).

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