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Could there be an electric car in your future ?

There's a long way to go. But we've come a long way already.

Someone at IBM (I think it was IBM?) wanted a computer on every desk. I carry a more powerful one than they ever imagined in my pocket. It runs on a tiny little battery all day. Plus its a mobile phone and a digital camera. Mine's 2 years old and the new ones make it look like an antique.

I could see us getting an electric car if they got the range up to around 200 miles. LOML could drive it to work every day and we could use it for errands. Then we'd have my truck for trips, hauling, towing the camper, etc. which is what it basically is used for anyway.

Hand in hand with electric car development needs to be investing in a real rail transportation system. Flying has become a nightmare and its not worth flying say Detroit to Chicago anymore. Amtrak is a joke. So a lot of people drive which you couldn't do with an electric car. If there was a reliable rail system, people would most likely prefer to take that route.

And Bob, I do hope we see more Nuke plants. I'm very much in favor of the new one proposed here. Yes the waste is nasty. But the volume is relatively small for the amount of power. I'd rather have casks of waste than the yellow cloud that spews from the coal plant a few miles away (which is, or was the largest in the world), day, after day, after day. Not to mention the massive trains of coal that are brought in day, after day, after day.
 
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My employer has a relatively large fleet of Priuses,(about 130 of them) I drove one for over a year, my impressions are: nice car, but expensive in the long run. Most of their cars are going on 4 years old now and I'd estimate they're each at about the 100k mileage mark. I got out of a prius and into my van, but the van is More expensive than the cars, so I can see why they switched to them. I'll be watching their continued maintenance with interest, as we're far from the typical prius drivers.
I got about 35 mpg on average in the prius, mostly because the car ran just about continuously for 8 or 9 hours a day (to power my laptop/docking station, in addition to driving around my territory).

For personal use, I'd consider one, though I'd really prefer one of the new diesels coming out of europe VW, BMW et al.

My father is going to be one of the early adopters of the Volt, he's been tracking their progress and I expect he'll order one next year when they're released. For his use, it will work well, he will probably be able to go a week on a charge before the motor kicks in... well, maybe not quite that long, given how much he and my mother drive around.
 
Garry Foster said:
Jonathan
But that is the problem, there are a ton of people that think they need to decide what you drive. And then there is the issue that we run out of electricity most every summer. Remember brown outs, and the warning that grid that is near collapse.
Garry
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The electric cars should not cause problems for the grid. The problem we have today is that electricity demand peaks about 10am and again at maybe 5pm.

Electric cars will be recharged at night when the demand is very low. The chargers will be set up to not kick in until a certain time at night to avoid charging during peak times (of course, you'll be able to override that if you need to).

So electric cars will actually help the grid. They will help smooth out the demand for electricity and allow more efficient generation. They will not add to the peak demand unless everyone decides to charge during peak times.

Also, regarding the comment earlier about the cost of electricity for transportation compared to gasoline - electricity is MUCH cheaper on a cost per mile basis.

Note: Many locations have electricity cost of about $0.10 per kWh. For 0.25 kWh per mile, you'll pay about 2.5 cents per mile. For gasoline at $3.00 per gallon and a car that get 25 MPG, you'll pay about 12 cents per mile. To get the same cost per mile from gasoline (at 25 MPG), gas would have to cost about $0.63 per gallon.

Note2: One problem is how to get taxes from electric cars. Gasoline taxes pay for the roads we drive on. You may have seen proposals from governments to start charging for the miles driven, rather than use gas taxes. Many people object to that because lower cost (including tax) is an incentive to buy a vehicle with a higher MPG rating. Also, how is the government going to collect the tax? People would have to report their vehicle mileage on their state tax return or something like that. There would be a lot more avoidance than today with a gas tax.

Mike

[And please don't get me started on hydrogen. There are so many energy losses in the hydrogen system (from generation to use) that it will never be practical.]
 
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The Chevy Volt concept in "Extended Mode" is what I've thought could be a workable solution.

You have a small bank of batteries for some local driving. When the batteries are discharged down to a set level an internal combustion engine can start. The sole job of the IC engine is to run a generator to charge the batteries. Because the IC engine is not powering the car directly the most efficient engine to do the job can be used.

I don't know diddly about IC engines but think diesel, turbine (ala the batmobile), dogs on a treadmill, I don't know.

Downside would probably be the efficiency converting from mechanical energy to electrical potential and stuff like that.

I myself own a small Toyota Yaris 4 door sedan. It's "spartan" but it gets 37-40 mpg highway on summer fuel at 65 - 80 mph the entire trip. I commute 35 miles each way to work and I've kept track of fuel milage for the 16 months I've owned it.

You could probably fit it in the bed of Allen's Ford - but it works for me.

We'll see what the car makers are doing in 6 years.

Jim

My automobile progression:
1983 : 1970 Pontiac LeMans 350CI w/Powerglide. (8-10 MPG)
1985 : 1985 Mitsubishi Cordia 5 Speed
1991 : 1991 Nissan Sentra SER 5 Speed
1996 : 1996 Ford Explorer V-6 5 Speed
2000 : 2000 VW Passat 1.8 Turbo 5 Speed (25-28 MPG)
2008 : 2008 Toyota Yaris 5 Speed (35-40 mpg)
 
2 things about purely electric cars. 1, what about driving in places like here in minnesota, say, around late november to mid march. little things like severe subzero weather, running them, and what about heaters? the other is, why not have the electric motor turn a generator? use batteries to get up to speed, then use the generator to turn the motor and recharge the battery?
 
Dan Noren said:
[...] purely electric cars. [...] why not have the electric motor turn a generator? use batteries to get up to speed, then use the generator to turn the motor and recharge the battery?
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If I correctly understand what you're saying, this sounds like a classic "perpetual motion machine" proposition. :huh:

I remember drawing up a scheme like this as a teenager - minus the car. It was fun to think about. However, the 2nd (I think) law of thermodynamics says it simply can't work that way. At least, not for long. :dunno: More's the pity.
 
Dan,
It won't work.
First of all there such a thing as friction. This losses in power so not all of the Kenetic energy can be transformed into potential energy. Then there's windage. Like friction this is a loss of energy due to the fact that the vehicle is moving through air. Then there are emechanical losses. This is due to the ineficiencies of transforming circular motion into linnear motion. I could go on and on but being a physicyst I don't want to bore you with the details.
Trust me it wont work.
 
Dan Noren said:
2 things about purely electric cars. 1, what about driving in places like here in minnesota, say, around late november to mid march. little things like severe subzero weather, running them, and what about heaters? the other is, why not have the electric motor turn a generator? use batteries to get up to speed, then use the generator to turn the motor and recharge the battery?
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Very low temperature is a problem for many batteries. For plug in hybrids like the Volt, when you have it plugged in the power line drives a heater (in addition to charging the battery) to keep the battery above a certain temperature.

If the car is left out, and not plugged in, the engine will start when you go to use the car and you'll run on gasoline until the battery is warmed up. Then the gasoline motor shuts down and you continue on battery.

There would be no advantage in having the electric motor turn a generator. The power for the electric motor would come from the battery or the generator on the gasoline motor. Since there are losses in each conversion from electrical power to mechanical power, you'd get less out than you put in.

So the present design, where the battery drives the electric motors that power the car, and the gasoline motor charges the battery (this is on the Volt) is the most efficient.

Mike
 
Kerry Burton said:
If I correctly understand what you're saying, this sounds like a classic "perpetual motion machine" proposition. :huh:

I remember drawing up a scheme like this as a teenager - minus the car. It was fun to think about. However, the 2nd (I think) law of thermodynamics says it simply can't work that way. At least, not for long. :dunno: More's the pity.
Click to expand...

Did you hear about the guy who was working on developing a perpetual motion machine?
He almost had it perfected, but not quite. So he tweaked it and improved on the design. But, it still wasn't there. He kept improving and tweaking. Then one day, just as he thought he was there........he went insane. :D
 
Take it from one who knows an all-electric 'believer' first hand.
My son, who is a doctor, and a good one, is normally a very logical person. But, he is a 'greenie' and an all-electric believer. He has an order in for a Tesla when they start production. We recently debated (it might have sounded like an argument ;) ) over the feasibility of all electric cars. Of course, no common ground was reached. I believe they will not be feasible for a couple lifetimes. He thinks the world is ready. He believes that all we have to do is install recharge stations everywhere. Street sides, parking lots, private homes, churches, just everywhere. I argue that would be impossible. Just the cost of copper wire (have you priced copper lately? :eek: ) would ruin any hoped for savings on running an electric car.
But, forget science and logic with these types.
I believe until highly efficient, and inexpensive, solar panels are developed along with the discovery of super-conductivity, it just won't happen.
 
Frank Fusco said:
Take it from one who knows an all-electric 'believer' first hand.
My son, who is a doctor, and a good one, is normally a very logical person. But, he is a 'greenie' and an all-electric believer. He has an order in for a Tesla when they start production. We recently debated (it might have sounded like an argument ;) ) over the feasibility of all electric cars. Of course, no common ground was reached. I believe they will not be feasible for a couple lifetimes. He thinks the world is ready. He believes that all we have to do is install recharge stations everywhere. Street sides, parking lots, private homes, churches, just everywhere. I argue that would be impossible. Just the cost of copper wire (have you priced copper lately? :eek: ) would ruin any hoped for savings on running an electric car.
But, forget science and logic with these types.
I believe until highly efficient, and inexpensive, solar panels are developed along with the discovery of super-conductivity, it just won't happen.
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My opinion is that all electric cars are feasible today, but they have certain limitations. The advantage is lower operating cost - electricity is much less expensive than gasoline. The disadvantages are higher cost to purchase because of the battery cost, and limited range.

I use the GM EV1 for a comparison. The problem everyone reported was the fear that you'd run out of juice before getting home. Drivers had to closely monitor the state of charge and carefully plan their trips because you couldn't just pull into a recharging station and "fill up" (recharging took a lot of time). That's just a killer for widespread adoption. The EV1 did encourage companies and government to offer recharging stations. The company I used to work for had three or four parking spots reserved for electric cars where you could recharge your electric car for free while at the office. Perhaps if more electric cars were sold more recharging stations would be available at places like Starbucks and others who stress their green creds.

Personally, I think the plug in hybrid is a better solution. Plug in hybrids don't try to eliminate the use of hydrocarbon fuel but greatly reduce it. And they only add load to the grid at night when demand is low. Recharging all electric cars during the day (as you son seems to want to do) will cause problems for the grid. The major disadvantage of the plug in hybrid is the higher initial cost because it uses both a battery and an engine - but that's the same as the Prius which has been very successful and is reported to be profitable for Toyota.

Mike

[Another problem with all electric cars is the temperature problem. Let's say you own an all electric car and live in Buffalo, NY or upstate Minn and you park your car at work during a really cold way. It may not work when you get ready to leave work (or using it may significantly decrease the life). With the plug in hybrid the engine will start and can be used to heat up the battery.]
 
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Mike Henderson said:
My opinion is that all electric cars are feasible today, but they have certain limitations. The advantage is lower operating cost - electricity is much less expensive than gasoline. The disadvantages are higher cost to purchase because of the battery cost, and limited range.

I use the GM EV1 for a comparison. The problem everyone reported was the fear that you'd run out of juice before getting home. Drivers had to closely monitor the state of charge and carefully plan their trips because you couldn't just pull into a recharging station and "fill up" (recharging took a lot of time). That's just a killer for widespread adoption. The EV1 did encourage companies and government to offer recharging stations. The company I used to work for had three or four parking spots reserved for electric cars where you could recharge your electric car for free while at the office. Perhaps if more electric cars were sold more recharging stations would be available at places like Starbucks and others who stress their green creds.

Personally, I think the plug in hybrid is a better solution. Plug in hybrids don't try to eliminate the use of hydrocarbon fuel but greatly reduce it. And they only add load to the grid at night when demand is low. Recharging all electric cars during the day (as you son seems to want to do) will cause problems for the grid. The major disadvantage of the plug in hybrid is the higher initial cost because it uses both a battery and an engine - but that's the same as the Prius which has been very successful and is reported to be profitable for Toyota.

Mike
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"limited range"

"you couldn't just pull into a recharging station and "fill up" "

Yep. That's pretty much what I said. The 'discussion' I had with my son revolved around the introduction of a new all-electric with a range of 100 miles. Personally, I question the 100 mile claim. That is probably based on a straight, level test course. Here, in the Ozarks, I doubt if that car would make it 50 miles.
Other than local shopping trips and such, the vehicle would be useless.
He currently has a Prius and I am impressed with what it will do. I believe other hybrid developments will come along and dominate the market. I'd like to see a pick-up truck hybrid that would be fuel economical when being used for just travel or light duty then kick in the big bangers for real work.
 
Mike Henderson said:
The electric cars should not cause problems for the grid. The problem we have today is that electricity demand peaks about 10am and again at maybe 5pm.

Electric cars will be recharged at night when the demand is very low. The chargers will be set up to not kick in until a certain time at night to avoid charging during peak times (of course, you'll be able to override that if you need to).

So electric cars will actually help the grid. They will help smooth out the demand for electricity and allow more efficient generation. They will not add to the peak demand unless everyone decides to charge during peak times.

Also, regarding the comment earlier about the cost of electricity for transportation compared to gasoline - electricity is MUCH cheaper on a cost per mile basis.

Note: Many locations have electricity cost of about $0.10 per kWh. For 0.25 kWh per mile, you'll pay about 2.5 cents per mile. For gasoline at $3.00 per gallon and a car that get 25 MPG, you'll pay about 12 cents per mile. To get the same cost per mile from gasoline (at 25 MPG), gas would have to cost about $0.63 per gallon.

Note2: One problem is how to get taxes from electric cars. Gasoline taxes pay for the roads we drive on. You may have seen proposals from governments to start charging for the miles driven, rather than use gas taxes. Many people object to that because lower cost (including tax) is an incentive to buy a vehicle with a higher MPG rating. Also, how is the government going to collect the tax? People would have to report their vehicle mileage on their state tax return or something like that. There would be a lot more avoidance than today with a gas tax.

Mike

[And please don't get me started on hydrogen. There are so many energy losses in the hydrogen system (from generation to use) that it will never be practical.]
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Mike
You are making a lot of assumptions. I doubt that all cars will be charged at night. I can't see any way it can help the grid. Around here we use the excess at night to pump back up to a lake at a higher elevation then during the day they drop it back down thru turbines. And we have 3 mile island and peach bottom within 40 miles or so of us. In fact they are in the process of reworking 70 miles or electric poles to move a new generator in this fall. Comes from France.
 
Garry Foster said:
Mike
You are making a lot of assumptions. I doubt that all cars will be charged at night. I can't see any way it can help the grid. Around here we use the excess at night to pump back up to a lake at a higher elevation then during the day they drop it back down thru turbines. And we have 3 mile island and peach bottom within 40 miles or so of us. In fact they are in the process of reworking 70 miles or electric poles to move a new generator in this fall. Comes from France.
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No, I never said that all electric cars will be recharged at night. However, the suppliers of electric cars have stated that they intend to offer chargers that are programmed for charging during periods of low utilization, or offering chargers that can be controlled by the utility company to charge during periods of low utilization - in return for lower electric costs.

There's no question that, in general, the utilization on the grid is higher during the day than at night. While there might be certain areas where that's not true, I've talked with engineers who work at power plants and they all say the same thing - demand peaks during the late morning and in the afternoon when people get home from work. Here's a pdf of load for a week at different seasons for a utility company in Australia. It's pretty representative. Note the significant decline in demand at night. The article the pdf is taken from is here.

Also, it seems most likely that people will recharge their cars while they're sleeping. Some people won't fall into that category of recharging at night - example, people who work shift work - but most people will.

My opinion is that we don't want to try to make everyone fit into some schedule, but we want to take advantage of the way people live and the scheduling of load on the grid.

Mike

[Here's a quote taken from a NJ utility:
"How does electricity demand vary over the day and year?
Electricity demand increases during the workday as more businesses, schools and industries open. Over the day the electricity demand increases until midday at which time the load begins to decrease as businesses, industries and schools close for the day. This peak is more dramatic in the summer as temperatures increase with an increasing air conditioning load. In the winter there is a second peak in the evening as people come home and turn on the lights and other appliances."]

[Other numbers that I've given, such as the kWh per mile are very well documented, although you'll usually see it as a range because it depend on many factor. But the number I used, 0.25 KWh/mile is not unreasonable, and probably conservative. Google "kWh per mile electric car" and see what you get. I doubt if you'll find estimates higher than 0.25 kWh/mile. But as I said earlier, use lower numbers and see what you get. You'll still find that a 300 mile battery is heavy and will take a long time to recharge.]
 
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