How much to charge for canle pedistals

Dan Thibert

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Location
Leominster Mass
I made these candle pedistals for a priest friend of my son who heard I was into woodworking.
He absolutely loves them but I do not know how much to charge.
They took me quite a long time to create, the smaller boxes being made of laminated strips of Oak, the larger ones one piece.
The wood cost about $120 or so and the labor was a bunch of hours :dunno:

I was thinking $250 and he will not balk at that price, but wondering am I undercutting my time and effort?

Your help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Dan
 

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Having questioned the boat restoration and general contractor guy I buy my lumber from, when I asked him what a talented woodworker would ask per hour, he told me he has to pay 40 dollars an hour to get someone with talent.
He also said this is a reason its hard to make money.(someone with enough talent to restore a mahogany window and doorway on an old brownstone,someone like you toni)
 
It is always interesting to read how folks determine how and how much to charge for their work.

Amateurs always undercharge because they fail to or find no reason to be compensated for their overhead. That's OK if you are happy with it. Those who make their living woodworking (or anything else) have to charge for overhead because they want to eat regularly, the mortgage needs to be paid and the utilities companies have a way of turning off their services for non-payment. And there are only 24 hours in a day and seven days on a week. Designs, taking care of the books and taxes, and chasing after materials take time, but then so does doing the laundry, taking care of the property and whatever else.

So, $25 per hour is less than market value in nearly every state I can think of. Unless there is other income for overhead expenses.

Hope that helps you, Tony, and others, understand how pricing needs to be determined. As for formulas, nothing beats keeping track of actual costs (ALL of them) and accurate times to determine a 'shop rate'. Then add on an hourly labor rate, a profit factor, and a fair ROI for the money invested in tools and shop. Ten years ago I needed to charge $65 per hour to keep up and I was $15-$25 less than most of my professional competition. That was because I was working from my own property - not paying a lease or rent on someone else's property.

Computerized spreadsheets saved my tail in keeping track of all this. And I had to take bookkeeping classes and marketing classes so I knew what to do.

So you see, $25 per hour is not free and clear. Maybe it doesn't even cover the true costs.

In the end, accept what makes you happy.
 
a better explanation carol, I was just relaying info on what a woodworker expects to be paid,I trust the info the contractor told me was accurate,.I was not thinking along the lines of building a particular piece and how to price it all out.
when I drive by the home depot in a village called Freeport near me, the latin american workers wait around the parking lots, by the dozens, for a contractor to hire them out for the day. I doubt very much they are getting paid 40 dollars an hour, Id guess more like 75-100 dollars a solid 8-10 hour day.(probably off the books also)and I would not call them untalented, they have plenty of skills, but Im not going into the politics of it all, this site doesnt allow it.

btw toni, I pay my cashiers anywhere from 7.50 an hour, up to 13 dollars an hour depending on experience.(this is for high school and college students)(minimum wage in NY city is 7.25 an hour I believe right now, just to give you an idea of salary)
 
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25$ per hour Don? that means 200$ for a 8 hour work day, is that a normal pro woodworker price there? Just being curious...

I actualy charge by the piece anbd generaly realise anywhere from 35-50/hr and I am cheap but the market is down now so I can't get what I should. My shop is in my home and my wife keeps my books so my overheaad is low. I just gave a guy a price on refinishing a table and If I get the job I'll make around 50/hr.
 
Carol,
Anytime your in the area give me a call. How long of a drive is it from your place to Apache Junction. I'm 10 miles due south of there.
Larry on the crowd are gonna come in april along with Barry and Geo Conklin your more than welcome to join us.

we are gonna have to behave if she drops in:) but hey that can be arranged we will keep the ashman in the bus and chuck thoits as well:)
 
25$ per hour Don? that means 200$ for a 8 hour work day, is that a normal pro woodworker price there? Just being curious...

I charge $50/hr for shop time, $35/hr when in the field.


As far as the stands go, I'd say $250 is a bit cheap, but the real question is the priest associated with a church? I'd try to donate them and get a reciept of the donation. If you donate them with a value of $625 that now becomes untaxable income, if you're paying 40% in income tax that gives you a value of $250 right there, plus the church doesn't have to shell out any money.

Just a thought.
 
I am always fascinated when the subject of price comes up for a persons work.

I am also amazed at all the formulas that come up. I remember way back when about 20 years ago one of my mentors at the time sat me down to discuss this subject. See we were making product doing custome projects (the field dont matter) and we were loosing out on some jobs and making a ton on others. All with the same costing method. If you examine what i have said it means the labor cost was the same and the variable was the amount of labor and the amount of material.

Then he explained that we needed to change from a cost plus model which prevailed way back to a market price model.

You begin to think in this manner when you have to bid for contracts in a closed bid and a defined spec. That is the free market. In this case you have to bid competitively.

What it leads to though is a market price for an object.

A market price is what the customer is willing to pay.

The real trick is to provide the quality and value at a price the customer is prepared to pay.

Sometimes you will leave money on the table, sometimes you will not.

The price people pay has little to do with what it cost you to make it unless you are involved in a cost plus contract for a customer or an open book costing project like some military government contracts with an agreed margin. If you are an inefficient producer and between having made it and selling it through whatever means neccessary you cannot develop the value in the eyes of the purchaser then you will not sell it.

Some things can be super cheap and you would still not buy them if you dont percieve value.

Value has little to do with how many hours you put in or how much you paid for the wood.

Its about what the person you want to sell it to sees as it being worth. So you need to do things that enhance that value for the specific person that you are targeting.
Simple things can go a long way.

Take as an example you go to the store to by a part for a vehicle. Say a piston. Lets say that the store clark puts one on the counter that is in a grey thin walled carboard box. And puts one on the counter (same part diff manufacturer) thats in a finished cardboard box with glossy varnish and nice pictures and the words finest quality german engineering or some ISO 9001 etc. And at the same time he says to you this one is made in Germany and is a real good quality.

Most people would buy the fancy box unless they have a tight budget or have been told by a reliable source that the plain one is good enough.

These things such as packaging and selling skill (appropriate advice from an informed clerk) add value to the product through ques to quality. They enable the buyer to justify paying more. The que to quality in the way we as consumers have been trained is through the packaging. Now i am not suggesting you package the items to get more money but in some cases that is most appropriate. The packaging has to be relative to the item and in keeping with the theme of the item. Sometimes it could be as simple as protecting the item in the eyes of the buyer and therefore providing a value through the fact that they could ship it after wrapping without further time and hassel packaging it. Here there are two values you are providing to the appropriate person. Protection and saving time/further cost.

It has nothing to do with cost.

If you wish to give the candle bases away at $250 do so.
You are already using the aspect of church, priest, friend of your son to bring your price down and justify it to yourself so that you feel comfortable. It does not sound like you are happy with the outcome but you could live with it from a conscience point of view this way. If that is the case go for it.

But lets take a scenario that this person had to buy these bases made out of solid wood and hand finished from someone else or a store. (Not Ikea these are hand made custom) Ask yourself what would he have to pay or what would you be willing to pay. Try to find out what has been paid previously for something like this.
That in my mind is the selling price or a starting price. If he balks you offer him a discount cause its for the church.

One aspect here that i have not mentioned is making him feel awkward. You do not mention whether he ordered these from you. If he did, did you not agree a price or did he not give you a budget to work to. This to me is important since if he does not percieve whatever price you end up charging him to be the price he believes they are worth, he could well end up paying you because he is an honorable man and commissioned them but not be happy with the result. Selling this type of work is a whole different story.

If in the process you make $85 per hour for the work. So be it. You invested in machinery and spent time and had scrap material in order to make these items. You need to pay for them. If you only make $10 an hour you make a loss because you spent too much time and too much material to produce something that would not sell for a price sufficient for you to get a satisfactory price for your labor.

Its all about market price. What the buyer will bear. Free market.

Best of luck.
 
I will keep the first part of April in mind.

Don, why not PM me your phone number. When I am heading for the east valley, I'll give you a jingle. I expect to be making a lumber run to Timber Wood soon.
 
I'd try to donate them and get a reciept of the donation. ....

+1 on the good idea. But be careful, you can't just make up a number. It needs to be a reasonable price, or the taxman might come and start asking some very uncomfortable questions!

I am always fascinated when the subject of price comes up for a persons work.

I am also amazed at all the formulas that come up. ...

Me too, but I'm more amazed at the number of times on different forums I see this question asked after the project is already finished (Sorry Dan).

Just remember, if you cut someone a special deal, make sure they know that it is a "just for them" price... or their friends and acquaintances will show up at your door and expect the same type of price.

best wishes,
...art
 
I don't have much to add on the pricing part of the discussion, I think it has all been well said, but I would like to say something on the bidding or estimating part. A very wise man once told me

"I never lost any money on a job I did NOT get"

and that is also something you have to think about, if one does price oneself too low, you often would have been better off NOT taking the job.

Cheers!
 
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here is another post or thread that would give merit to the idea of a business approach area..there are many of us here that try in one form or another to make few dollars to offset our expenses and the pros here sometimes could benefit from a business mans perspective on these matters..us worker bees dont usually have the savy that we should have to make our efforts more saleable.
 
Wise words Stu. But there are some industries that do work at a break even not quiet loss just to keep ticking over. The issue is that break even is not understood and it does not mean just labor and material. Someone has to pay for the lights at a very simple level.

Then there are members here that sell things on the basis of putting things in a store on consignment. Thats all fine and Dandy but in a case like this I question the strategy.

Modern manufacturing and it dont matter how small the run is (in fact those that have experience working in a plant where the principles of JIT or Kanban were applied no,) apply the principle production quantity of one.

Its about the concept of mass customization. But even that has limits and constraints.

So the above logic therefore applies to all those woodworkers that will make even one unit.

Unless you know what the demand actually is your production of a unit for purposes of consignment is at best a display piece such as a mannequin and you best be ready to make more to customers spec. It therefore neccesitates that you carry a stock of or have access to( in a reasonable time) any multitudes of wood.

You therefore need to consider the constraints that need to be applied and discussed with the person providing the consignment service such that customer expectations are managed and you are not coerced into making something that you do not want to or do not have the ability to just to maintain the relationship with the store. Simply making it clear through signage that this item is available in Cherry, Oak or Whatever will suffice. But there is a ton more to this relationship with the store owner that is worth understanding.

If you then consider the economics of this case. You have a bunch of stuff completed in this manner and on display at various stores in the HOPE that someone buys it, you have a strategy that relies on hope.

The hope that someone comes along and wants whats on display. The hope that it sells for the price being asked. The hope that it is seen as custome woodworking when in fact you have relegated it to the level of competing with Ikea for it is not custom made. The hope that you will recover your investment in time, material and use of your facilities.

Sorry to say but hope is not a strategy for a business. I can take a lotto ticket and have as much luck as you.

As to your comment Larry as i have mentioned before I would be more than willing to contribute.:thumb:
 
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