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Thread: New Ceramic Toishi..... Update.... Problem Solved!!

  1. #1
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    New Ceramic Toishi..... Update.... Problem Solved!!

    Today, I went out to Super Viva Home to buy just a few more bits for the aparto II, really just some small but necessary things. I check the mailbox before I left and I found a special postcard from Super Viva Home giving me 20% off for one day only (I can choose the day in the next week or so).

    When I got out there and did my shopping, I was not buying much, but one thing that I was wanting was a couple of new sharpening stones, my #1000 and #3000 water stones are getting thin.

    While I was looking at these stones I saw that they now carry "New Ceramic Toishi" which are ceramic sharpening stone........

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hey, I did save 20%.....

    I went for the whole set, #220, #400, #1000, #3000, #5000, #10,000

    Just about $200, but with the discount was closer to $150, I think I did OK, and this gets added to the Aparto invoice

    Boy do these things work, my fingers are killing me, but I have a BUNCH of stupid sharp chisels

    I understand that they clean up well with Borax or such, any one use these things?

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Stuart Ablett; 11-12-2009 at 05:47 PM.
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
    William Arthur Ward

  2. #2
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    What brand of Ceramic Toishi did you get? Not sure what you mean by "clean up". Could be that you are not getting them completely flat, as evidenced by slurry streaks. I have Shaptons and the top is "clean" after properly flattening them. The ceramic stones are a little harder to flatten. I use to use a flattening plate with silicon powder, but it proved too much of a pain with the mess. I now have a diamond flattening plate that I use and find that I flatten more often, but it does not take as long. That, I think is the key. If you let your stones go too long without flattening them, then the task becomes harder.
    Last edited by Bill Satko; 10-28-2009 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #3
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    Really Bill?

    I thought one of the perks of the ceramic stones is that they are so tough and you don't have to flatten them every ten minutes like the water stones

    I have a #24 silicon carbide flattening plate I use with the water stones, works good, but is really messy, and as I don't have an endless supply of water down in the dungeon (it is the water from my AC and my dehumidifier, lots in the summer, but I run out in the winter) I thought it would be better to get away from the water stones.
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
    William Arthur Ward

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Ablett View Post
    Really Bill?

    I thought one of the perks of the ceramic stones is that they are so tough and you don't have to flatten them every ten minutes like the water stones
    The reasons I switched over to Shaptons were so that I no longer had to soak my stones (main reason), quicker/better honing of my A2 steel blades and lastly an improvement in how quickly the stones would wear.

    The point that I am trying to make is that by getting away from the silicon carbide powder and flattening plate, I am more inclined to bring my stone back to flatness because it is easy and quick. I find that for me, it is easier to flatten often with only a few strokes on my diamond plate, then to flatten less and spend more time doing it. I use to put off flattening my stone past the point that I should of because of the ordeal of my old method.

    How un-flat can your stone get before it effects your sharpening? That is something I would be interested to hear from everyone. I have seen old honing stones (Arkansas) that were so dished it was unbelievable but, it apparently did not stop someone from using it. I believe that you must make sure your stone is really flat if you are going to be honing the back of the blade, but I am not sure how true that is for honing the bevel. Maybe it depends on the width of the bevel? Not really knowing, I tend to keep my stones flat.

    Maybe the differences in our sharpening approach can be explained by the number of blades that I am keeping sharp. I have over 26 hand planes and 3 sets of chisels that keep my stones busy. Because of this I am constantly tinkering with my sharpening method. Right now I am in the process of revamping my pond configuration. I just put through a short trial a prototype of some ideas that I have. I need to iron out some bugs and when I do, I will post what I developed.
    Last edited by Bill Satko; 10-29-2009 at 06:05 AM.

  5. #5
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    Bill thanks for the info, it is much appreciated.

    This was not a planned buy, but an impulse buy, so I did not do much research on it, but now I understand that these ceramic stones are not "Ceramic" but "New Ceramic", which is a bunch of the ceramic bits in a man-made stone type matrix, while they will very much outlast a regular man made water stone, they do still need to be flattened from time to time.

    Soaking them is not a big deal, but yeah, I can see how NOT soaking them would be even better

    What kind of diamond lapping plate do you use?

    Cheers!
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
    William Arthur Ward

  6. #6
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    BTW, this is the kind of flattening stone I use for my water stones.........



    works great, but at #24 grit, it is a bit aggressive
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
    William Arthur Ward

  7. #7
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    Your flattening plate looks easier and less messy than the cast iron plate with silicon carbide powders that I used.

    I am embarrassed to say that I spent some dough and got the Diamond on Glass Lapping Plate.



    I agonized over the decision to buy it for several years now. Float glass with sandpaper can do the same thing, but takes up some room and in my mind creates more of a mess than how I use the above plate. I flatten my stones where they sit, as I don't rub the stone on the plate, but rub the plate on the stone. Very fast and convenient. That is what I am trying to get to with my sharpening, fast and convenient so that I do it more often and always have a sharp edge.

    So how do I now feel about spending the wad I did on the diamond plate? Bottom line, I wished I had done this years ago. For me it was the right decision, but it may not be for others. It is not a must have but a convenience that I was willing to pay for.

  8. #8
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    Can only thank the two of you for this discussion. I started out with a water stone a few years back and never really got to the "really sharpe stage". I realized as someone put it , "getting through the sharpening learning curve is a hurdle that will change your woodworking" so i persevered, bought Mr. Leonard Lees book and tried out the sandpaper on glass/flat surface system. Then Don mentioned going higher on the sandpaper scale and finally i had the breakthrough. Now having got there, sheets of sandpaper later and a great deal of mess, I thought Stu just hit the jackpot cause it looks like a nice reusable setup with grits all the way up to the high numbers.

    I think for me this is a mindset thing that i have to get my head around and the sooner the better. Since starting my bench and doing some plane work, I am enjoying the handtool woodworking more and more. It only works though if you have a sharp edge.

    Sandpaper is not cheap or easy to come by for continuos use. I find i can access up to about 600 grit easy but not in PSA. Then i have to go online for the rest and it gets costly with shipping etc.

    This stone thing is like good clamps, a one off buy and then the agravation is over. So Bill i think you settled the right approach and now can focus on the woodwork rather than the stones.

    Its only now that i realise the power of flat sandpaper that i actually realise just where i was going wrong with my stone. Its simply not flat at all.

    I find this type of conflict a interesting debate i have with myself. Will spend a fortune on one tool with highly questionable logic as to the merits of the cost and then cannot bring myself to spring for something else (typically clamps and stones) for some unknown reason that escapes me.

    Thanks for sharing this guys, really helps to see one is not alone in the struggle to find a happy medium.
    cheers

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Keeble View Post
    Sandpaper is not cheap or easy to come by for continuos use. I find i can access up to about 600 grit easy but not in PSA. Then i have to go online for the rest and it gets costly with shipping etc.
    Rob, I use sandpaper (PSA rolls from Grizzly) on a granite surface plate for all my initial flattening of blades before moving on to my stones for honing. As for my bevel surfaces, I was started grinding them on my Tormek giving me a hollow grind. I am finding it easier to hone on my stones with a hollow grind (less roll over). Before that I would flat grind on sandpaper to shape a new bevel before moving on to my stones. There is some debate over hollow grind vs. flat grind, but right now I am leaning toward a hollow grind on most of my blades.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Ablett View Post
    BTW, this is the kind of flattening stone I use for my water stones.........



    works great, but at #24 grit, it is a bit aggressive
    I'll offer my experience and opinion about these "flattening stones" - don't know if it's applicable to your stone.

    I bought one of the Norton flattening stones. After a while, I started having trouble with my water stones, even though I was flattening them fairly often. What happened is that the flattening stone was no longer flat.

    On water stones, you always wear the middle the most (the stone becomes concave). When you use the flattening stone on your water (working) stone, you tend to wear the outside of the flattening stone more than the middle - so your flattening stone becomes convex. Soon, that flattening stone is just making your working stones concave (I guess maintaining the concave of the working stone).

    Once I figured it out, I bought a DMT diamond plate and use that to flatten my working stones. No problems since.

    Mike
    Ancora imparo
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

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