GUITAR BUILD #2 IN PROGRESS....

Okie dokie....thanks for the insights.

Hey Scott, kinda caught this thread in the mid-build. Being a spinny kinda guy this is just fun to watch. As a player (es335) I'm excited to see your son tear it up on this thing. No critique...just interest and support. Decompress and keep it up!

Hey Vaughn and Scott, what would happen if as a finishing coat Scott used wipe on poly on something like the guitar. Surely that would give it the smooth gloss or satin look. Of course you would have to sand out the layer currently on it but would that work. Would be a nice durable finish too? I aint knowledgable about this stuff. Just suggesting it may be better than rattle can.

Rob, IMHO wipe-on poly would ruin it. The difference in look and feel between a good poly finish and a hand-rubbed lacquer finish is like the difference between Ikea furniture and a Steinway piano. Also, since he's already got lacquer on it, he might run into problems trying to get poly to adhere to it.

The poly is probably more durable, though.

The only advice I'd give is to let the lacquer dry for a week or more before you try and block it and polish. I did mine after a few days and it looked great then, but as the lacquer dried a bit more, I got some more orange peal. I reall need to take mine apart and polish it up again, but I like the way it plays enough that I don't really care how it looks at this point...

Oh, and I used the Deft brushing gloss lacquer, but I went against the instructions and sprayed quite a few coats on. So, YMMV

You're right about not rushing the rub out on lacquer, Brent.

Brent Dowell said:

...and sprayed quite a few coats on. So, YMMV

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The more coats you apply, the longer the whole finish takes to cure. Hardened lacquer (like shellac) dissolves when you apply new lacquer on top of it, so as the finish gets built up thicker, it takes longer and longer for each subsequent coat to cure.

Here's an interesting snippet from a web page I found a while back...

Some guy named George Utley said:

Lacquer is unlike varnish, polyurethane or paint in one important respect: when it dries, it’s still the same material you had in the can, without the solvents that made it liquid. All the others change chemically as they dry...ordinary lacquer doesn’t. This is important to know because the solvents in the second coat of a lacquer finish will dissolve the first coat...the third coat will affect the previous two, and so on. The more coats you apply, the easier it is to wind up with a mess, and the longer the drying time between coats. This is true whether you’re using a brush-on or spray application.

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Vaughn McMillan said:

...
The more coats you apply, the longer the whole finish takes to cure. Hardened lacquer (like shellac) dissolves when you apply new lacquer on top of it, so as the finish gets built up thicker, it takes longer and longer for each subsequent coat to cure....

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Well....that actually explains a lot. Why is it the more coats I apply, the less and less patient I get though?! (true story....after predicting a screw up if I didn't walk away, I was back at it in about 2 hours....I taped off the green front of the headstock to protect it from black paint, and proceeded to paint the back of the neck. When I removed the painters tape, the clear lacquer came off with it! . I got a little miffed at myself, so after a couple hours of paint drying time, I turned it over (face up) sanded off the face of the head stock and started the dye process all over (it's a small area so we're only talking about a few minutes, but geez!). Got done with that and found that I had cotton towel imprints all over the back of the headstock paint, which was apparently softer than it had first felt to me! . The great Kreskin correctly predicts yet another disaster! Still working on the "restoration", but I'm optimistic, plus I have plenty of obliglations the next couple of days that should force me to keep my paws of the darn thing!

Due largely to ignorance and convenience, I used spray poly on our first guitar and promptly got cyber scolded by a couple of hardcore vets. Lacquer supposedly sounds better (prolly more critical on a hollow body type instrument), plus IIRC, it expands and contracts with temp changes better. One of the guys that commented about lacquer was famous enough that he wouldn't even give me his name, but he sent me several PMs offering input on the guitar and the tube amp when I built it.

Thanks again for the insights fellas!

Update for 8/21/10

Update for 8/21/10:

The pressure's on! (on both of us!) I glued and clamped the front to the back today....definitely a critical step. I used the guitar templates to help even the clampling load, and used a piece of scrap plywood to put pressure in the middle....19 clamps in all.



I've also put a coat of paint on the neck and the cavity cover:


Gotta work the next couple of nights, so won't be making much progress for a few days.

Story time...

It's been a couple of days since I made an update. Partially because of my work schedule, and partially because I've had to redo some steps. I pondered leaving the problem portions out of this post, but for those who are following this thread hoping to learn something, I'm going to mention it.

The problem.... some of the clear coat lifted from the front when I removed the clamps....the finish obviously wasn't dry enough. I spent time researching possible repairs....super glue was one suggestion, but ultimately ended up sanding the clear coat down to wood...which in turn took most of the dye off (which I expected), so I redid the green dye, expedited the drying stage with a hair dryer, then redid the clear coats on both front and back. The sanding and dying only took 60-90 minutes...the real time loss was reapplying the multiple coats of lacquer with 20-30 minutes between coats....loss of close to a full day's progress. My work schedule will keep from proceeding for close to 24 hours, and there's no more clamping require at this point, so with any luck, the new clear coats will dry nicely without incident . I won't be rubbing out the finish for a couple of weeks anyway.



Inexperience with lacquer and impatience with drying times are undoubtedly the main culprits that led to this problem , but I suspect that some of the issue may be with the original Rustoleum "Special Lacquer" spray, or at least my habits with it. I didn't think too much about it until I tried the Minwax and Deft spray on lacquers, which behave and smell much differently than the Rustoleum. The Rustoleum smells and dries more like poly....never having used spray on lacquer before, I assumed it was normal. The Minwax and Deft smell strongly of acetone, and dry much more rapidly....dry to touch in a few minutes. I can't say that one is better than the other, but for my application and my habits, the Deft has left the smoothest coat, goes farther per can the Minwax, and was the cheapest of all 3. The new clear coat has much less of the "orange peel" effect than the Rustoleum left. Though it'll still benefit from some rub out, this little debacle may turn out to be a blessing in disquise.

More to come....

Bummer about the forced lesson, but hopefully it'll be a learning experience for all of us. I think you did the right thing by going back to wood and starting over. I've not seen the Rustoleum lacquer before, but now I know to stay away from it. I've done a few turned pieces finished in lacquer over the past week, and I'm slowly learning that using light coats is one way to make the rubbing out easier. I used to tend to get impatient and want to get the finish built up quickly, but then I'd end up messing things up and having to spend more time fixing problems.

i havnt made a quitar but i have had troubles with lacquer, it does take time to dry completly.. i had a blotchy cherry box that was laying on its side and on a foam router pad,, and when i got it to move to new location i had the pattern in the finnish.. so i would say you got lucky that you caught it in time.. looking great scott. and i think from what you have shown us thus far that you would be better to do all the cutting fitting and glueing first then do the coloring and clear coat then you dont have line up and clamp issues and loss of finish..

Just as a comparison I took some pics of the 2nd finish.

Before:


After:

Thats looking SWEEEEEEEET

That green color is out of this world. Really liking how this is shaping up!

did you use different lacquer this time it looks like it burnt in much better scott,, or maybe you were closer when spraying it and kept it wet as you made the next path.

larry merlau said:

did you use different lacquer this time it looks like it burnt in much better scott,, or maybe you were closer when spraying it and kept it wet as you made the next path.

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Definitely lacquer, but who knows about my technique! ...I sprayed it on, it came out smoother, and so far haven't managed to inflict any noticeable damage! (knock wood....my head works well for that! )

Update for 8-29-10

Here's the latest:

The "final" clear coat has been applied (a couple of times! ...hopefully this is the last). The neck is drilled and the tuners are mounted. The pickups are mounted to their trim rings, and the final electronics scheme is worked out. From here it's a matter of waiting for the lacquer to cure and deciding how much rubbing out I want to do...the results from the spray can are glossy and smooth in most places, but there's some orange peel and overspray spots in a few areas. Once that's done we bolt the neck up, wire the pups and pots together, mount the chamber cover, string it, and find the ear plugs!

I did run into a slight problem on the back where the neck and body meet. When I rounded over the back of the body, I should have stopped at the base of the neck....the neck is now narrower than the neck plate. A smaller two-piece neck plate is on order and will hopefully fit. It's one of the many small things amateurs like me are likely to run into, and fortunately, there are several decent alternatives.

Here's the front of the body with the most recent "final coat":


...And the back with its most recent "final coat":


Here's a look at the original style neck plate that will no longer fit, and the two-piece replacement:


Here's the finished neck and the pups in their trim rings:


And the back of the neck:


For those who are interested, here's the wiring scheme we'll be using:


A couple of 12 hour night shifts and some family obligations will likely keep me from until mid week, but I'm hoping to be done by the end of next weekend. More to come!