For those that produce goods for a living a little puzzle to get you going....

At a 10% discount or $90 I would have to seriously consider it. Your cost per part drops because your overhead is the same regardless if you make one or 100 parts. just a quick run of the numbers looks like a substantial increase in profit by just making 20 more parts.

Even the 30% discount was a pretty good increase in the bottom line for the extra amount of work.
 
Guys i am delighted with the participation and the thought processes.

I want to call on a few guys to give their answer they gonna face this dilemma sooner or later. One is our budding urn maker. Other is our lumberjack the budding wood salesman.

Would also like Mike H if he reads this to throw his lot in and give us some thoughts given his background prior to woodworking:).

I will give you my view and experiences tomorrow. :thumb:
 
Guys i am delighted with the participation and the thought processes.

I want to call on a few guys to give their answer they gonna face this dilemma sooner or later. One is our budding urn maker. Other is our lumberjack the budding wood salesman.

Would also like Mike H if he reads this to throw his lot in and give us some thoughts given his background prior to woodworking:).

I will give you my view and experiences tomorrow. :thumb:
I must decline, for now. Very interested in the comments here however.
 
Well lets see if I make all these widgets and they are all sold to some sort of retail shop. than that shop is marking them up 40 to 100 %
So that would mean that I am all ready selling them at the wholesale price of $100.00 so no deal
Now if you want to order 20 mugs I could probably do something for you on price. :thumb::thumb::thumb::rofl::rofl:
 
So there was this gun grip company. They make and sell grips to only one place. They sold for 18.00 a pair. The grips cost the maker 5.00 a pair to make/deliver
Now the gun manufacture gets sold and the new owners decide that they will pay no more than 8.00 a pair.
Keep in mind we are talking better than 1,000 pairs per month contracted.
Also the maker is only tooled to make grips for that gun manufacture.
Do I drop my price going from 13.00 net profit a pair to 3.00 or close the door?
 
Now that I answered the question the way I would have 10 or 20 years ago I'll answer it the way I would today.

Instead of dropping my price by 30% I am raising my price by 10%. I don't need the head ake's that go with the increased production and if I loose 10% of my business then I'll have more time to play golf without any loss in revinue.
:thumb::D
 
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well rob i am not a wood salesman.. just tryun to recoup some of my losses..here is an example that is similar to chucks.. i had a product that i had 45dollars into sold it for 95 sold 3,, now get order to make 6 more delivery to the store they dont sell and we get told to take them out hey need the room.. we take them out and get lucky to sell 2 on the way out.. we take to another store they agree to sell them for 40% take.. so my profit is now 30dollars on a 45 investment of materials.. sell one.. times are tough i know.. but i cant set on these other 3 forever so i decide to sell them at a discount to unload them and wont make any more period.. this has happened on three different products i was told would sell easily... guess because its flat work no one wants it.. if it was round it would sell maybe.. one more thing have been asked to make 2 cedar chest by different people. gave price so to reflect the quality that they are got a yes but not right now on one and the other never replied after i had given access to the pics and sent messages twice asking there thoughts... so this sales approach of pricing isnt something i am to good at or the words i have read here and elsewhere do not apply in my area.. so Rob you can tell them the best answer but i cant...
 
ok, here goes my take on it. remember, not an accountant mind you....:D

since the cost of making the widgets domestically is so high ($50), i would outsource the production to say, china, where labor costs and such are so much lower (prison labor is so cheap these days:thumb:), and lower the cost per widget to around $17.50 each (this includes the discount for buying by the container). that knocks the costs down from $5000 per month, to $1750 per month. with a total of other expenses of $4000, that brings your total payout per month to $5750, which leaves you with a profit (yes, i said the evil p-word:eek:) of $4250 per month. now, when mr o.t. blue shows up with his bright idea (now if he were wal mart, it would be another story:D) of only paying $70 per widget, i would tell him that the lowest i could go (gotta keep the profits up:thumb:)) is $85 per widget, and that only with a guaranteed order for 10,000 widgets (that's at least 2 containers, and could probably knock the cost per widget down to $15:D), then i would ask him to take a day or two, while quietly reminding him of my being the only widget maker (no mention of any competition in this story:type:), consider my counter proposal, and get back in touch with me.:wave: (the nerve of the guy, dictating to me what the price of my product should be, who does he think he is? wal mart? :rofl::rofl:)
 
Here is another take.

All too often a product will be brought to the market without knowing the demographics of the customer.

The question to ask is who is the customer who will buy my product? Where do I find them? What features and benefits are they looking for with regard to my product?

Wigits customers are buying wigits. Why? What else would they like about their wigits if they could get it?

Where are the wigit customers? What other things do they participate in? Can I make wigits available in those areas as well. What do I need to do to make wigits more attractive to more people?

My question would be where is the discount customer selling my wigits that I am not selling wigits?

One wigit means he using it. 100 wigits means he's selling it.

Going off shore with production has all sorts of ramifications. Without getting political, there will be a learning curve with dealing with off shore producers - and a time frame for making the deal, production and awaiting delivery. Timely deliver is also a customer benefit that can be marketed.

Don has a point also. Is ramped up production worth it or even possible, given the facilities, tooling, personnel, etc. It costs money to ramp up. Where is that money coming from? How long will it take to recoup it? ROI comes before profit.

And Jay has a point as well. When and how do you get paid? The WalMarts and Home Depots of the world have put many a small supplier out of business. They are only interested in volume. And on someone else's dime.

Disclaimer: used to teach a class on Woodworking as a Business.
 
So there was this gun grip company. They make and sell grips to only one place. They sold for 18.00 a pair. The grips cost the maker 5.00 a pair to make/deliver
Now the gun manufacture gets sold and the new owners decide that they will pay no more than 8.00 a pair.
Keep in mind we are talking better than 1,000 pairs per month contracted.
Also the maker is only tooled to make grips for that gun manufacture.
Do I drop my price going from 13.00 net profit a pair to 3.00 or close the door?

That is the danger in having only one product and only one customer. Diversfy or close the doors.
 
Carol said:
The WalMarts and Home Depots of the world have put many a small supplier out of business.

Studies have shown those businesses who blame Wal-Mart for their failure were never competing in the first place. Often those small wannabe entrepreneurs focus on selling only to Wal-Mart. If they don't get the contract they close shop. I worked (briefly) for a small company that did just that. They lied about their financial stability and manufacturing output capabilities. As soon as the orders came in they were swamped and could not fulfill their contract. Gone overnight.
Granted, it is well known if you want to do business with WM, prepare to get your lunch eaten by them. I believe the only way to negotiate with them is to be prepared to walk out. If your product is good it is marketable elsewhere.
 
two thing were forgotten in this scenario, taxes (which will be going up in january if nothing is done), and the costs for the healthcare mess which was passed (150 million in additional costs for catipillar). then you have to factor in all the surprises in that mess (just found out about how businesses must now fill out a 1099 for purchases greater than $600) which will cost companies money, just in additional paperwork. then there's also the negative propaganda put out about our beloved widget company, because we're more concerned about profits than the well being of our fellow man (shades of atlas shrugged). with all this, our profits will be sliced to a pittance, and soon we'll be out of business....
 
I'm assuming your numbers are including a personal wage, or paying someone else is factored into the $50 production cost?

For running a business, as long as you have extra capacity available, it is usually going to be in your best interest to use all that capacity as long as you can sell for more than your variable costs. One of the best ways to cover overhead is to increase your volume to near 100%. If you have to invest more in overhead, then it gets to be a more complicated question. After you fill up with all the volume you can handle, then you can either expand or start increasing prices.

Even if you're losing money in the sense it that 10% more sales doesnt' cover 10% of overhead, it can still be a good move sometimes. If the alternative of not taking an order is to lose more money, you'll be better off at the end of the month taking it. Working in the steel industry, this is a way of life for us. Some months we make a lot of money, some we lose. You always have to look at the options and decide which orders to take to end the month in the best financial shape.

There is a real danger of upsetting some customers by selling cheaper to others. I think we all see how big businesses deal with this, they have name brand and generic versions. Some products they might even both be made on the same machine. If you want an example, go look and see how many laundry detergents that proctor and gamble makes at walmart. Sales, varying quantities (20% more free), alternate product part numbers, etc there are a lot of other schemes that are used to keep from upsetting customers. I've seen some woodworking and furniture pricing that seems to do this with their material pricing. A small shelf - $100 for pine, $200 for chery, but it probably didn't have $20 in wood in the cherry shelf. Not nearly enough to justify $100 premium for it.
 
Very interesting discussion.

I found myself sitting in my easy chair, enjoying coffee number 2 and realized, I have plenty of time on my hands and would love to be making 20 more widgets this month rather than the time I've had to read these forums!

So, bring it on, but, I'm as much salesman as I am widget builder so give me 85% on qty of 20...you want 30%, best be ordering many more!

Doug

Oh, and by the way....any of you are welcome to call and order one of the widgets I currently make, I could use the additional sales.
 
Another thought I had reading some of the responses here. I think a lot of people are thinking you're selling 1 at a time, then get an order for 20. Selling to a retail and to a wholesale market is a touchy thing to do. I'm used to my work where everything is wholesale. You can also upset off your wholesale customers who buy 1000 units at $70 each by selling to an individual for $100. Odds are your wholesale customer is selling them for over $100 each anyway. You dont' want to compete with your customer, it's a bad thing to do.


I think the key fact to answering this decision is whether or not the cheaper sales product will impact your current business. If it's shipping a large order to a store in another area that doesn't share customers with you, then it really doesn't have any impact on current business. If you cover variable costs, INCLUDING a reasonable personal wage if you're making it, then you need to fill up your capacity.
 
I agree on the single customer problems. Several times at work we've had machine shops that do repairs on our equipment and we were their sole customer. If a repair shop makes to many mistakes, we really have no choice but to change shops. I've seen two or three now go out of business because either something they did make us stop using them, or the equipment that they serviced becoming obsolete. Sometimes things as minor as a new purchasing agent can make or break a small business supplying a single customer.
 
Wow i never expected such great participation. :thumb:

Ok so what are the origins of my question? Lets get away from woodworking or worrying about the widget.


1) You cannot make any of these decisions if you dont know where you stand financially.
  • I would say the majority of small business owners dont set a budget for themselves.
  • Then they dont monitor actual cost versus planned cost and actual sales versus real sales.
  • Back in my formative years i was groomed in a corporation. I hated the accountants and all they stood for. Thats because i never took the time to understand them and saw them more as an obstacle.
  • Most of the small businesses i vist do not look at their financial status on a monthly basis. Instead they run off the cheque book. Do we have money in the bank (yes) ok lets do x and carry on. They hand the shoebox of invoices and receipts to the accountant/bookeeper maybe once a month and hand the accounts to the bank to maintain their line of credit.
  • This approach is basically living on a treadmill waiting for lady luck and if she dont pitch up the treadmill gets to stop.
2) If one does set these goals/target (budget) and one holds oneself accountable to these targets and reviews the results then one knows full well when you achieve a point called breakeven. Once you go over breakeven you have profit. To know this though you need to be aware of where you are financially. In my business when i had a financial director, R&D department, Sales, Marketing and Production and IT departments all needing their own budgets and all needing to have responsibility for spend delegated i still needed to know where we were daily. There were controllable expenses and uncontrollable. Rent was a given or we were not in business. But whether or not the IT guy got to buy that new monitor for the person in the buying dept was controllable unless the old one was kaput. What i did astounded my financial director and partner. I used to be able to tell him where we were going to finish in each month financially within a reasonable tolerance for our control over the business. We were exporting widgets to 33 countries around the world in three different industries and we were a small business.

3) The market sets the price. Period. The market will only pay what the market is willing to pay. There is no universal price for everything. Just look at gas in the USA ( a free market). Thats why oil, gold wheat whatever fluctuates daily. Its market priced.

4) The rules are the same for everyone. GAAP makes that rule. (lets not take this down the political road i am talking about business and accounting. Cost is cost and profit is profit for every business big or small.

5) My original intent with this debate is to get the point across of marginal costing. Once you break even and if you are running at break even, meaning if you know for sure that you are making a profit at your current level of sales and all costs, you the business owner or management team have the OPTION (note i said option) to to decide to marginaly cost your product such that the only incremental cost you incur will be the direct cost. Since at break even you have fully recouped your overhead. But to do this you need to know where you are financially and how your business is performing. This has one precurser to it. It assumes that with the current levels of equipment and staffing and raw material availability that you have capacity. If you have to incur additional costs to create capacity you cannot marginally cost.

What do i mean in my term by marginal cost. I mean consider only the direct costs of raw material and labor in my example.

But i see small businesses that do this frequently and wonder why they are running up their line of credit. When you do it without knowing where you are, you burn your own cash. In construction its common practice to at times "buy work" or take a job to keep the lights on and make no net profit. To do that you need to know where you are financially.

6) I notice everyone getting hung up on cutting the price and the impact. Yet as wooworkers we often post deals on our forum. Right now if you look at woodcraft they are selling the NOVA lathe at a $500 price reduction to normal. $500 of a normal list price of $2250. Thats around 22% price cut.
So why do this.? Many reasons abound.

One big one is promotion. You might say this is a loss leader if we knew the costs or a drawcard for them knowing you will buy a chuck and other extras as we have all spoken of when warning guys looking at only the lathe cost.

Some of us have got sharp enough to store certain items in wish lists and seize the opporunity to buy them when they are on special and free shipping.

The question this raises is marketing. Another sore point with small business. Again if you have the financials set up and have the sales budget established then you have to drive the sales to make them happen. The drive takes place in enticing you to buy. Some of the items move at cost. The key is to be getting attention and moving something. At the end of the day with a big enough mix in product and enough skus you end up with sales that will average out at a certain net gross margin. These sites have metrics relating to sales patterns. We all know its unlikely that the guys seel 1000 Novas this month and nothing else. But it gets the word out. Look how i am using it in this discussion.

If one does promotion frequently in order to drive sales you end up having a certain run rate of sales and cost of sales and profitability. You will then be over break even. The aim hopefully is to make a profit each and everymonth. This certainly was and is my goal.

7) Now to the issue of Mr out of the Blue. Some picked up the difference between wholesale and retail and the quantities. My thoughts here were to get that recognition going. But also to get a certain amount of flexibility going. It is not impossible to have to distributors of your product serving the same market and have them at different prices. I did this in the USA when i first entered the US market. What will determine if this is possible is your product and the demand and perception of value that your entire offering can produce. Price is negotiable always. But its not the exclusive element in a sale. Therefore it can be traded against other factors leaving two customers with the same territory buying similar quantities but at different prices. There are two other parameters to be considered. Delivery, (cost thereof and the timing thereof) and Payment, the method and the delay.

Example, i had a long standing distributor in Spain. He had to factor his inbvoices to pay me in 120 days. On the other hand when i sold to Germany I would have to discount my invoice value by 2% on top of the price which may or may not have been better or worse than the Spanish guy, but i got paid immediately for that. As a general term if a German company is paying yu past 30 days you better be worried about a bad debt.

There are other issues to be considered with Mr out of the blue. One of which is his intentions, origins and threat to your existing customers. Some have mentioned these implications. That is all good. For this reason in a wholesale arrangement one should have agreements drawn up between supplier and buyer. But these are often forgotten in the arrangements small business guys practice because in many cases they get so excited at the fact that they got the order they do not want to put anything in the way that they would percieve might "offend or deter" the customer.
Well not speaking up you will pay for in your pocket. Any agreement of this nature protects both parties. Yu usually cannot contract on a one sided basis. So anyone not willing to enter into an agreement should sound alarm bells for a small business person. If the intent is genuine then the other party should have no problem with a contract. Example I have a 10 page contract for the guy who built my deck. He signed it with no problem. He said it was not neccessary but it spelled out the intent on both sides. His promises and deliverables and my payment schedule and obligations. We were both very happy with the result. I gave him an unsolicited letter of recommendation afterwards and he had already done a few extras for which he was entitled to charge but did not.

I would also urge those who are selling wholesale to consider the more global reach of the market place today. It need not be trully global but just that Mr Blue could have approached you from out of state. Yeah i know i deliberately took the other parameters out of the equation to test flexibility and lateral thinking.

Now to the point of the cabinet guys.
 
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Cabinet case or project case

If you sell widgets the picture is completely different to if you sell a project like say kitchen cabinets.

Why.

Kitchen cabinets even if you dont do the installation, invariably means project.

There is the design phase and then the build phase and the installation phase.

Unless you have turned them into widgets like the dedicated door or draw guys have, you will be supplying them to someone who in order to pay you needs to accomplish things to be able to be paid themselves.

This automatically puts yu into a payment and cashflow cycle that extends over time as work is completed. A little like Dons Church project. He could not deliver the cross until the architects were ready for him.

Its much more difficult to know where you are financially in a project environment when you have many projects on the go. But its even more imortant than widgets. This is where estimating and comparing your estimate to actual such that you ensure that your current method of costing is accurate enough to result in a profit. But here capacity definitely comes into play.

Given your cash flow and invoicing for a individual project will typically be spread over several accounting periods (months) You will well find you are out of pocket for the material and labor and not have had enough payment come in for the overhead.

To be able to marginally cost in this environment you have got to have enough going out the door in a month to be able to be invoicing at the different stages of the project such that you get to he point where on a cashflow basis you break even.

I have just had a good friend of a former client tell me of the layoffs they have incurred. But the sales guys at this company (large SME) cannot understand that its not that the order will be coming. Its the timing of the order and its execution that is vital.

In a project environment similar to a production line environment you never get back the lost hours, days or weeks.
The big thing is you are not in control like you are in a self contained factory like your shop. In your shop you can always work overtime and gain back the capacity. On a project you are dependent on events that intersect with each other often on a finish start basis.

So at the end of the year when on a month to month basis you have carried cost(overhead) but not had the cashflows to cover them you find yourself making a loss even though you were extremely busy.

Ok hope you all enjoyed the brain teaser. There is a great deal more to this than i am laying out here. Most of you know this. I just want to get some of the guys being a little more in touch with flexible arrangements and the understanding of marginal costing.

Take my recent purchase of new tires. I negotiate on everything i buy. I was taught by the best hagglers. The tire dealer i settled on has a opening pitch that says, we wont be undersold. There you go. I got the price i wanted for exactly the tire i wanted. Now i offered the deal to a good friend and local councilors store. They would not budge.

In my mind they should have marginally costed their sale and done the deal. In the end for a few dollars per tire they lost a 4 tire sale and drove me to a competitor. Tires are a commodity.

So my ultimate point is be aware of ware your financials are.

Set goals and a budget that is time sensitive. (you need to drive yourself)

Monitor actual against planned.

Negotiate price when it means a sale if and only if you know the impact in your business financially and on your customers.

Be flexible.

Oh and very last point i dont cut price i tend to offer more for the same.
 
Answer to Jays point.

Jay for that to be the case one must have it set in your mind as a deliberate strategy. That says you should be looking to diversify yourself in the market place. Dont help you if you live in town x and only sell n town x. If town x has a major industry go boom and collapse you in trouble even if your customers on an individual basis only represent 10%.

Thats why i sold to 33 countries. No one was more than 10%. BUt we did that deliberately not by accident.
 
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