Planer and Jointer Economics

For a current project, I bought rough lumber and paid to have the lumber yard mill it to S4S. I paid $0.16/l.f. (or a couple hundred$) and I also had them mill trim to exact specs (another couple hundred$).

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that after one more performance like this, I might as well buy a planer and buy rough lumber.

Here are my questions:

1. Do you absolutely positively need a jointer too? Is there an easy reliable way to make one straight side without a jointer?

2. How much am I going to have to spend to get a decent planer (stand-alone)?

Thanks,
Cynthia
 
Cynthia, first of all yes you can get buy without a jointer. For face joining you can do it with the planer and a sled that you can make, several here have made it and it works quite well. for edge joining that can be done on a table saw, I recently showed a simple way of doing that, there a thread in the fistures and jigs portion of this forum.

Now for your next question , I have a "portable" planer if you can call it that. It is a DeWalt DW 735 and is without a doubt the best in it's class, It's not cheap, it is the most expensive "lunch box" planer but IMHO can't be beat, If I had the room I get a 15" something like a shop for or a Grizz but my shop is only 10'x20 ' so that what I live with. There are less expensive planers out there but after using my 735 on the build I just finished I wouldn't trade it for any other in it's class.
 
Depends on what your looking for. I have the Ridgid TP13000. I've had it for about 6 or 7 years and never had a problem with it. On my kitchen build I tried a planer sled for the first time to keep the boards wide and aviod ripping them down to joint them and then glue them back up. There was a small learning curve to using the planer sled.

As for jointing on a tablesaw it can be done but it depends on what you will accept for the glue joint. I've used the glue line ripm blades but they don't compare to what a jointer will give you. I watched a guy at work trying to get an acceptable glue joint from one of those blades. He was still messing with the boards while I made two swipes on the jointer and had my panel glued up.

There are always more than one way to do things. Some ways are easier than others and it depends on what your willing to accept for the final product. I bought my jointer and planer for the same reason your talking about. Why pay them everytime when after a job or two you could have bought a planer and jointer and now have more control over the straigthnees and final thickness of your material.

I'm looking to upgrade my planer to the one Glenn just bought from Grizzly.
 
Dang gone, you two, Cynthia and Alan couldn't be close for this to be an easy deal, her buy your planer so you could upgrade. Cynthia, I have planed many many rough cut boards on my DeWalt planer. You can see pictures of it in my shop build thread. It is a work horse. Used it when my daughters and I added a two story addition onto our home. We made our own knotty pine horizontal shiplap siding for their bedrooms. Also made a dividing wall between their rooms out of 2X6's that we made shelves and half the wall in one room, the other half of the wall shelves for the other room. Put on our ear muffs from shooting, set it up outside and go to it. It is a quite satisfying job as you get to know each board and see it reveal itself to you. I find myself sorting boards as I plane either because I like or dislike it. Better ones at eye level, others lower or higher. It is for me, just another way to interact with the wood and project, yep, high up front cost, but it cost me nothing when I am not using it, it sits and is patient waiting for the next project. My jointer is a HF version and does a decent job.
 
I could get by without a jointer easier than I could without a planer. I get glue-ready edge joints from my tablesaw. (Haven't tried the Glue Line Rip blade...don't recall which red Freud thin kerf rip blade I'm using.) Tod Evans (one of our resident pros) doesn't even own a jointer.

The DeWalt 735 is indeed probably the best in its class. There are several other decent lunchbox planers out there, but the DeWalt has many, many favorable reviews. The best price I've seen recently is about $480 to $500 for a refurbished one, and around $600 for a brand new one.
 
+++ on the Dewalt planer. :thumb::thumb:

When I needed to replace the blades with freshly sharpened ones, I found it to be the easiest thing I had ever done. No futzing around like with the jointer. :thumb::thumb:

When I got mine (eons ago) it came with a second set of knives. Saved my bacon. Put those in when I sent out the original set for sharpening. No down time, and I sure didn't have time for down time at that point in the construction.

Highly recommended before buying the jointer. It will pay for itself very quickly.
 
I would love to do a side by side challenge of the Grizzly G0505, what I have, against the DeWalt.
I am real happy with the Griz. IMHO, it is a real workin' hoss and at a very reasonable price.
I didn't really understand what a jointer would do for me. But, when I bought my oldie but goodie used Delta for $50.00 I found out quickly. I don't do a lot of flatwork but what I do was changed from 'sorta OK' to good with the use of the jointer.
 
I was always taught to joint one edge and a face before runniung it through the thickness planer that way you have trued up the one face and edge. The jointer can give a true 90 degree edge between the face and edge and the planer will copy that on the other face and edge when run through the planer. Like anything starting from a good foundation is the best way to go about things. I have both the jointer and planer. Grizzly jointer ( on sale now) http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/8-Jointer-w-2-HP-Motor/G0586
And the Dewalt 735 Planer ( gift from LOML) I will be getting a floor mount heavy duty planer but the dewalt does the job for now though I do find it struggles with certain hardwood boards.
 
I was always taught to joint one edge and a face before runniung it through the thickness planer that way you have trued up the one face and edge.

Just an observation. I used to do one face and one edge as well. I have become more conscientious of grain direction. Often the direction that is good for the face feed leaves you a reference surface that makes your feed direction for the edge you "want" to start with not so good. I have changed to:
- Joint face
- Plane to parallel (not necessarily to thickness)
- Joint edge using either face as desired
- carry on . . . :rolleyes: this is a preference, not a right or wrong sort of thing for me.

P.s. Like Bob and others, I square EVERYTHING myself so the jointer (used to be the planer and sled) is the first tool used after hacking big boards into usable sizes.
 
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Just an observation. I used to do one face and one edge as well. I have become more conscientious of grain direction. Often the direction that is good for the face feed leaves you a reference surface that makes your feed direction for the edge you "want" to start with not so good. I have changed to:
- Joint face
- Plane to parallel (not necessarily to thickness)
- Joint edge using either face as desired
- carry on . . . :rolleyes: this is a preference, not a right or wrong sort of thing for me.

P.s. Like Bob and others, I square EVERYTHING myself so the jointer (used to be the planer and sled) is the first tool used after hacking big boards into usable sizes.

I can see that working too Glen, good call. :thumb: Yea I guess I left a step out as I have had to use a Skill saw to cut out some of the curve out of boards before Jointing them too.
 
Since your new to this I'd recommend looking at new grizzly machines. I dont really like the lunchbox planers and you would really be better off buying a better machine. Heres a jointer and planer from grizzly that you should look at:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-3-HP-220V-Planer-Polar-Bear-Series/G0453P
this is much better that any portable planer but needs 220v

http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/8-Jointer-w-2-HP-Motor/G0586

dont even bother with a 6 in jointer

For now I say you should get a jointer and buy all your stock S2S. With a jointer and table/chop saw you can make all the parts you need.
 
If you look at Grizz dont forget the polar bear range it was on special launch prices.

As for jointers i picked up this one except in the conventional grizz green.

You will notice two things different to this one from the 586. It has a built in mobile base which saves you dollars and you will definitely need to move it around and i believe in jointing you want all the power you can get so its 3hp as opposed to 2. ( With hindsite i was just looking at the price of the 586 and thats a better deal and you can run it off 110v i think you can order the mobile base attachment for it as an accessory but you will have to check with grizz on that.

But beware you need to think in terms of a 220v connection in your shop area i presume garage. You might want to think about a sub panel in your garage for additional receptacles to cater for all the new kit.

Oh and make provision for the dust collector that will be next, and while we at it, air cleaner too. Grizz has a good cost effective air cleaner.

Mmmmm what else guys..:rofl:

You best come clean with your hubby Cynthia and tell him you addicted like the rest of us and there is no cure.

Oh yeah dont forget some sort of heating too winters coming.

Then of course you still missing a drill press to my knowledge and a bandsaw oh and then there is the spinny stuff...and a bench vice .....and and....best of luck.:D

tell him you might as well just get a list together and do a one stop shop and get it over and done. ;):gonnagetit:
 
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Oh Yea Cynthia Grizzly is just across the border in Bellingham and it is best to go mid week first thing in the morning due to long lines at customs. The products are not CSA approved but they are UL and if it is for a home shop ( which it is ) it is not a problem as the wiring doesn't change at the border. :rofl:
 
All this discussion definitely brings up a few more questions:

1. So you're saying I can ask the lumber yard to give me S1S or S2S? What would they charge for that?

2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was S1S or S2S and I had a planer, I could get buy without the jointer?

3. A few people have voiced concern about how devoted I am to this hobby before buying a bunch of big tools ($$$$). The short answer is I don't know. But how devoted do I have to be before buying the right tools for the job?

I think that for the extra money I paid this time, I could have bought a planer and done the planing myself. I can't abide by paying the same amount next time to the lumber yard....why not just buy the tool? Am I missing something?

So the projects ahead include (after the bookcases), built-ins for 1 walk-in closet, 3 bathroom vanities, lots of kitchen cabinets, a bunch of outdoor furniture, a dining room table, and a "hope" chest for my daughter. So how many woodworking tools does it make sense for me to own?

Have I mentioned how good my garage (shop) smells? :)
 
You will have to ask your lumber yard what they would charge. S1S or S2S is surfaced or planed on one or both faces. You would need the jointer if you purchased either. You would also need the planer if you purchased S1S so you could plane the other side.

You save the most money by buying rough lumber. The lumber yard does no milling.

With regard to how deep you get into this, and the fact you don't yet know, it would be good to consider resale value of the tools you do buy.

Grizzly makes good tools. I have several. What they do not necessarily have is a reputation for tools as do names like DeWalt.

That impacts resale values whether that makes sense or not. Generally they are a good value upon initial purchase, and I'd buy another in a heartbeat if there was a need.

But I would be willing to bet that in a side by side sale of comparable planers, the Dewalt would sell quicker and bring more money. JMHO. Sheath your arrows, everyone.

So spend your money, dear, on things that make sense to you. When you ask here (or anywhere else for that matter) what you are getting are opinions. As they say, YOUR mileage may vary!

Hope this helps.
 
...I think that for the extra money I paid this time, I could have bought a planer and done the planing myself. I can't abide by paying the same amount next time to the lumber yard....why not just buy the tool? Am I missing something?...

Not that I can see. Even if you decide down the road that you don't need or want a tool, you can usually get about 50% of your purchase price selling it. Even more than that if you purchase the tool used.

...So the projects ahead include (after the bookcases), built-ins for 1 walk-in closet, 3 bathroom vanities, lots of kitchen cabinets, a bunch of outdoor furniture, a dining room table, and a "hope" chest for my daughter. So how many woodworking tools does it make sense for me to own?

All of 'em. :D

...Have I mentioned how good my garage (shop) smells? :)

Ain't that a great fringe benefit? :thumb:
 
Cynthia you can buy the wood from the borgs with only thickness planing to do if you like or you could buy direct from a band saw mill and do the work of finishing the material yourself. In the long run buying the tools and machines is an investment in future projects and how many you need is totally dependant on you and what you feel you need. There are lots of cool tools out there that will do one job and if you have lots of the same job to do it will save you hrs. I have drawers and cases of tools some for concrete some for framing and some for cabinet work and joinery some are used more than others. I am sure that there are others here that can say the same thing. Chisels are a must, Block plane, smoothing plane... , Level, Framing square, Sliding bevel square, Combinatioon square, hammer, mallet, nail sets, scrapers, files, Tool belt, Tape measure, Drill, impact driver, circular saw, Belt sander, Orbital sander, jig saw,Table saw, Hand saws ( dovetail, crosscut, coping, Japanese, back saw) Screwdrivers, Good ear muffs, cartridge dusk mask, Safety glass's, Gloves, tweezers, Drill bits, ..... and the list goes on and on you can get power planers, Biscuit jointers, scroll saw, drill press, routers and all the bits that you will need, Miter saw, brad nailer, compressor ...( how big is the shop your building? ):eek:

One thing is that buying tools you get what you pay for shop wisely when it comes to getting tools. Power tools in particular. Sometimes a deal isn't really such a good deal when you get the tool home and find that it just doesn't hold up after one job and you wished that you had spent the extra bucks to get the next model up.

How many tools do I have? Lots and I use all of them ( not all in the same day :rofl:) It takes years to aquire all the tools that you think you need only to find out your needs change continually.

Hope some of this helps. I am sure that I have left out lots that others can fill in.
 
Drew brings up another good point. With what you planning to do I believe you will need to think about a small pancake compressor and a nailgun.

I would say you need to consider this balance.

between you could go out and buy the furniture you wanting hand made from another woodworker and save yourself some money and time.

or you buy the tools the pro has to be able to make that long list yourself and in the process get to enjoy doing it, learn a lot, have a huge amount of fun and frustration at times and stand back and say, i made that and i have some new skills and i got satisfaction out of it. By then, i very much doubt you will part with those tools that easily.

This stuff is like a drug. Each step each swish or bang gets you more and more hooked. Once you smell the wood and get to recognise them and do a few joints that feel like an accomplishment, you suddenly start to notice them on other pieces in other peoples homes or at the furniture store or anywhere you find yourself. Next you start to examine pieces to see how they were made, you get drawn deeper into the vortex each step of the way. In some ways its not even voluntary. The tools well they just the facilitators almost like an orchestra with different instruments being conducted to play great music.

In the same way you will find a good musical instrument in an experienced hand can play a good tune so too will a good tool make the difference to the pleasure of what you want to achieve. A good pro can also make a poor tool perform but that takes years to achieve.

Do the sums Cynthia make a spreadsheet list on one colum all that you are going to need to make all the projects you want. Add the material for each even if its just rough estimates, include hardware because there are things where the wood becomes the cheap part. Include your tools you will need. You only need to buy them once for many projects. Tally up the colum.

Then pick and choose your projects, get some quotes to do them, tally that lot up. If you like leave out the projects you want to specifically do and already have the tools and lumber for.

See where the balance is.

Then you can take a view on what the enjoyment/learning/ frustration and time factor is going to be. You could even add to the bottom of the left hand colum a deduction for resale of the tools at the end if you want to be clinical. And if you want to be nit picky add in scrap because you will have scrap along the way thats part of learning even the pros create scrap mostly for test cuts and set up cuts.

Most of us here are committed. There is no justification economically for what we spend on tools. Maybe a guy like Alan or Chuck or Mike H or the many others that are pro woodworkers can get a return from their shops because they are experienced and way more productive due to experience than a hobbyist. You have an advantage that you seem to be at it on a semi permanent basis that will make you more productive and help the learning curve.

If you have doubts now do the spreadsheet carve yourself out some fun projects and evaluate where you wish to draw the line.

But remember when you compare using real wood to furniture you see in the store you are not comparing apples for apples.

I have a sucker buy dinning room table. My wife just had to have one when we arrived here. Its wood. But not the way it came off the trees. :rofl: Its probably mdf i cannot make it out without hacking into it, i know this because the chair arms certainly are. They used clever finishing techniques to make it look like some wood i dont know a dark cherry or whatever they call it finish. Did not fool me but satisfied Loml so what could i do.

If i had to build it from real wood, it would be way different to me. But few others realize this or appreciate the difference.

Its all your choice at the end of the day.;):) And there are always trade offs.:(
 
Cynthia, another factor either nobody mentioned or I missed... Boards have wear and tear in inventory. If someone offers me 3/4" S2S at a bargain, I turn them down since there is no room left to plane out dings or imperfect glue-ups. The lumber yards in my area sell primarily S3S 15/16 or 13/16. One side is straight line ripped so it is ready to run along a fence. The 15/16 (my preference) is planed enough so you can select grain and color, then do the final planing. The 13/16 is the favorite of the cabinet shops (who I suspect use a wide belt sander rather than a planer).

I have a 16 inch jointer and use it, but the planer is the essential tool, IMHO. Everyone I know with a DeWalt loves it, I had a Delta, my BIL has the Ridgid, both are good but the DeWalt is great. Or at least it was until I got my 16 inch 5 hp monster.
 
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