Taking advantage

Douglas Jones

Member
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140
Location
Portland, OR
I'm dismayed at the number of members of not only this forum, but other woodworking related forums that I frequent, mostly as a lurker, but I'm there regardless.

It is at this time, the Home Depot fiasco involving a sharpening system, but it is just an example.

How quick we are to jump on a "deal" with no regard as to if it is a realistic price or not. How quick we are to hold the "big boys" feet to the fire, to demand that they support what was probably an error.

We have seen it with Amazon, Sears, Home Depot and Lowes. How many of these errrors do we take advantage of before we pay the price...by either the divisions involved stop selling the products or maybe even worse, out of business.

One comment made today was how it is possible that "heads will roll" in regards to Home Depot...I'm just not sure I would feel very good about saving a few dollars if it means someone loses their job.

Those of us that are self employed, wood business or other, certainly expect to make money and realize that if we are big enough to have employees, mistakes can and will be made. We must stand by them, even if it puts our business at jeapordy. We would not want huge numbers of folks taking advantage of the mistake and yet, here we are, taking advantage ourselves.

So, my thought....if it is too good to be true, how about backing off and letting the deal go by....it could be a job saved.

Doug
 
That's a noble sentiment, but I think in this day it's a bit misplaced. With deal aggregate websites that thrive on getting, and reporting things like this, no deal really gets 'let by.' If I see a deal on something that I need, I'm going to order it instead of waiting on the reseller to buy 50 of them and put them on eBay or Craigslist. If you want to direct your anger at someone, direct it at these people who aren't going to listen to you anyway.

While I feel for someone who might lose their job over a mistake like this, in reality it was their job to prevent it in the first place. And the collective action of a tech-savy populace is going to make the mistake hurt whether a small group of us let a deal go by or not. You have to look at the sheer size of the communities of these deal websites compared to ones like ours. HD is actually very lucky this didn't make it to the deal websites when it started.

The deal was intentional. HD meant to price it this way, they just forgot to cut off the tap. I don't feel bad about ordering and receiving a product at a price they intended for me to buy it at.
 
Doug,

I agree with the sentiment you expressed. For me, it simply comes down to the golden rule (as do most things in life). If I made an honest pricing mistake, I know I wouldn't appreciate a bunch of people taking advantage of it. A few years back, there was a member of this forum who posted a story about how he helped a friend of his get a major score of a deal off of a widow selling her late husband's woodworking tools. This guy was really proud of what he did. I posted a response asking him to re-evaluate his actions and instead of some stranger, to put his mom/sister in the role of the seller. His only reply was to tell me that I was a jerk and that he felt what he did was perfectly legal -- caveat venditor.

However, if I may ask, exactly how is one supposed to know whether the "offer" is legitimate one or a mistake? If I recall correctly, in the HD case, didn't their apology letter state that they indeed intended to sell a certain number of workshops for he advertised price but underestimated the demand? If that's true, than in this case, I think any "blame" should be directed at Home Depot and their internal systems.
 
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Hold on a sec in regards to comparing the big box store to a small business. Ever been in the back room at a HD where all the returns go? Most just get crushed and destroyed as it is cheaper to do that than sending them back to the manufacturer. Or how about cutting employees hrs back after the summer season to the point that they have to quit rather than just laying them off? No small company treats it's employees that way. So I don't shed a tear for the big box stores.

In a case like this where they offered something at a good price on Boxing day and the demand was overwhelming then HD has a responsiblity to the customers, as with any other store or business if it is advertised at a set price it should be sold at that price and as pointed out how does one know as a customer that it was a mistake? It was a great deal and I wish that I had been able to get in on it too.
 
How is it taking advantage of something if they advertise the price at a given point and then take my order information? They advertised the price and I agreed to pay it. I didn't take advantage of a widow woman or someone unaware of the cost. I didn't low ball anyone. They advertised and I placed the order.

I knew they probably had a set number and I figured I had gotten in before they sold out. When I placed my order it was stated on their website that the item was back ordered. After I got the cancellation notice I just assumed that they weren't getting, or had on hand as many as they thought so they canceled after a certain number.

They canceled my order, and I was fine with that. Did it aggravate me, sure. I didn't get mad at Home Depot though. Matter of fact I purchased some hardware from them yesterday.
 
Doug, I think you make a very legitimate point and I agree, but I don't have a problem with people responding to a "unrealistic" price. If a mistake is revealed by the company, then I do have a problem with people who insist that they are entitled to that price. So it is OK to take advantage of a big company, but not small companies or individuals? Kind of a slippery slope of taking advantage of someone's mistake when you make a difference between who it is. Large companies are made up of very many individuals. One of these individuals made a mistake. Do you really want to take advantage of that person?

I think the people in this forum responded very well to the situation. They ordered the product with the hope that the deal was legitimate and when it collapsed, I did not notice anyone claiming HD owed them the product at the price advertised. Maybe I missed it, I am pretty proud of the response of everyone.

Thanks for bringing this up. As I said you make a good point we should always keep in mind.
 
Years ago when LOML and I bought our first house I went down to the local hardware store and purchased a bunch of stuff, as I recalled it was over $50. I paid with my credit hard and the clerk ran the card though the machine (it was the older machines that used paper no the new electronic ones. I signed the paper put my receipt in my pocket and went home. The next month LOML was going over the credit card statement and asked me what I returned that got us a $50+ credit. I couldn't figure out what she was talking about till I took out the receipt and looked at it. The clerk had used the wrong form in the machine and instead charging me the money she credited my account. The difference was I had $50 worth of merchandise and was $50 to the good. I went back to the hardware store and found the manager. I should him the credit receipt and explained to him that I now owed him $100. Keep in mind this was a small family owned store so I am sure I was talking to the owner. The guy was flabergasted to i was being so honest.
Now would I do the same thing if the BORG made the same kind of a mistake, You bet but thats just me.
 
Reading the replies brings forth a little more clarification.

I guess it is not so much the responding to an advertised price, it is holding their feet to the fire once they sell out. It seems that the mistake they made was allowing the system to post a backorder.

The internet has brought on a new attitude to shoppers opportunities and expectations and a requires additional due diligence on the part of the merchant...and of course, we all want better prices, reducing margins and therefore, the number of employees one can have, therefore making the due diligence more difficult....round and round it goes.

While I'm on my soapbox of shopping...how many of us go to the local toy store and review a piece of equipment and then go to the internet to purchase it because of the savings? How long can we expect the local retailer to stay in business as the showroom for the dot com?

Ah well....I wish everyone a Happy New Year...I'm sure we will all do the right thing in 2011.

Doug
 
While I'm on my soapbox of shopping...how many of us go to the local toy store and review a piece of equipment and then go to the internet to purchase it because of the savings? How long can we expect the local retailer to stay in business as the showroom for the dot com?

I am more than willing to buy locally as I am a instant gratification type of guy, but I am now finding that the entire retail model is changing rapidly. The selection from local stores is diminishing with all of the stores carrying the same brand if they have the product at all. I am now finding that I need to shop on the Internet if I want something that is only just a little different than the mass appeal.

I have run all about town too many times checking all possible stores to see if they carry what I need. I have now resolved myself to just save myself time and buy it via the Internet. Times they are a changing!

Yes, that it pushing a lot of brick and morter businesses out of the market, but it is also opening up many, many more small startups at the same time. With little overhead they now have a broad reach via the internet. I don't think this is necessarily bad. I see more selection for the consumer and better competitive pricing. I am sure there are downsides to this and I guess we will have to see what they become.
 
Bill...make no mistake about it....I'm an internet shopper. I'm in a wheelchair and it is just plain a hassle to load it into the truck, unload it...shop and then load/unload again....

But, if I have to see/touch/test something....I'm going to buy it from the local dealer that has it. This would be electronics, tools, books, etc. Of course, I'm not beyond letting a local dealer know what is available price wise elsewhere....I'll accept whatever discount he may or may not be able to handle.

Doug
 
No heads are going to roll and no jobs will be lost at the company.

Periodically, manufacturers need to get rid of a large container of merchandise. Whether the reason is the fact that is discontinued, it is the end of the fiscal period and they have to make numbers....whatever.

The Rep will go to Depot, offer the goods for a ridiculous price, and tell the BORG that it is a one shot deal. That is what happened here.

As for being left on too long.....the processing of orders sometimes fall way behind inventory figures.....nothing was done wrong here.....(except for the fact that I did not get one!)
 
When I lived in California I was in the market for a new table saw but funds were a bit tight. I saw that Lowes had a bunch of Jet contractor saws on sale for $400. I looked and was tempted but didn't buy. That night I was talking to my son who worked at one of the other Lowes stores and he told me to offer them $100 for the saw. They had 2 or three pallets of them. I went back the next day found the manager and made him the offer and he took it. I drove my truck up to the store they loaded in the box with the new saw in it and I took the saw home. Later my son said that they were getting rid of the Jet line and had to clear there shelves. Said the Zone rep probably told the manager to get rid of them no matter what.
 
When I lived in California I was in the market for a new table saw but funds were a bit tight. I saw that Lowes had a bunch of Jet contractor saws on sale for $400. I looked and was tempted but didn't buy. That night I was talking to my son who worked at one of the other Lowes stores and he told me to offer them $100 for the saw. They had 2 or three pallets of them. I went back the next day found the manager and made him the offer and he took it. I drove my truck up to the store they loaded in the box with the new saw in it and I took the saw home. Later my son said that they were getting rid of the Jet line and had to clear there shelves. Said the Zone rep probably told the manager to get rid of them no matter what.

That's exactly what happened.....Once the buyer got concessions from the manufacturer....they could have thrown them in the dumpster and done pretty well....or they got concessions from the new line of saws that were waiting at the warehouse to get displayed. Either way...the winner is the consumer. Not a bad deal when you think about it
 
When I lived in California I was in the market for a new table saw but funds were a bit tight. I saw that Lowes had a bunch of Jet contractor saws on sale for $400. I looked and was tempted but didn't buy. That night I was talking to my son who worked at one of the other Lowes stores and he told me to offer them $100 for the saw. They had 2 or three pallets of them. I went back the next day found the manager and made him the offer and he took it. I drove my truck up to the store they loaded in the box with the new saw in it and I took the saw home. Later my son said that they were getting rid of the Jet line and had to clear there shelves. Said the Zone rep probably told the manager to get rid of them no matter what.

Don,
I got my Delta drill press and Delta dust collector the same way. I think I've got about 300 in both of them. The only thing I've payed full price for is my bench top ridgid spindle sander. I don't think that sucker ever goes on sale.
 
Peter said, in part: "..... get a major score of a deal off of a widow selling her late husband's woodworking tools. This guy was really proud of what he did."

Peter, I really wish you would not be so judgemental about situations like this. I live in a retirement area and "getting scores" from widows is a way of life. Sometimes they are cheated, particularly with guns, but otherwise they are just happy to get rid of the 'junk'.
Fishing tackle, tools, whatever often goes at yard sales very-very cheap. The object is to clean out the house and garage.
I was once called by the widow of a friend who was a turner. I bought most of his tools for $5.00 each, kept several and sold the rest for $10.00 each. Everyone involved was happy. She also gave me several truck loads of wood. I kept a little and, over time, donated the rest to my woodturning club monthly wood raffle.
You should see what happens at the auction house. Often cartons filled with items that may be worth many hundreds of dollars usually sell for just a few dollars. Good riding lawnmowers, table saws, etc. often sell for just $20.00. The object, as I said, is to get rid of the stuff.
Few are 'cheated'. The widows may, or may not, know the value of the items but they just don't care.
 
Frank,

Perhaps I'm simply being naive but I couldn't knowingly be a part of what I view as taking advantage of a widow. Now, if she knows the relative value of the merchandise and just wants to rid herself of it, fine. The scenario you were involved in sounds to me like the later -- plus the fact that you had a friendship with the late husband.

What bothered me the most about the situation I described was the obvious crowing about it by the poster. As I recall (and it's been awhile), the poster even commented that the widow was ignorant about the items true value.
 
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Ive always believed buyer beware.
Especially when buying something used from an estate or a small internet business, even the big boys sometime.

A business owner better have a strong stomach if he wants to be in business.
Employees make mistakes. Always. If you want to survive, you surround yourself with good people and hope you catch most of them.

As far as the widow..........I dont understand how anyone can think someone took advantage of her. If she asks 25 dollars for something worth 100 dollars, whos fault is that? Its her late husbands fault for not thinking ahead and obviously, HE DIDNT CARE MUCH ABOUT THE FATE OF his tools as he made no preparations to dispose of them after hes gone.
Ive set up guidelines for my wife and son as far as anything I own that might be worth a few bucks, including model numbers and the phone number of people in the trade that will be able to assist them(her) in selling off my equipment once I dropdead.
If the late husband knew his wife is totally incapable of handling the sales of his tools, he should have made arrangements so his wife could benefit from the sales of his equipment/tools.
 
Frank,

Perhaps I'm simply being naive but I couldn't knowingly be a part of what I view as taking advantage of a widow. Now, if she knows the relative value of the merchandise and just wants to rid herself of it, fine. The scenario you were involved in sounds to me like the later -- plus the fact that you had a friendship with the late husband.

What bothered me the most about the situation I described was the obvious crowing about it by the poster. As I recall (and it's been awhile), the poster even commented that the widow was ignorant about the items true value.

Most times the widow is completely ignorant of values. But, as I said, they just don't care.
For guns, cars and jewelry the family has usually descended like vultures. What is left behind is 'stuff' that has to be disposed of. If a $500.00 fly rod sells for $10.00 that is simply something that doesn't have to be packed up or moved again.
 
Douglass i fear that you are feeling concern for what i consider to be corporations void of integrity or ethics.

The over traded retail market and highly competitive nature of consumer business today where the consumer is now tapped out in terms of disposable and is on the hunt for deals with the aid of anything and everything to assist has led to many many deceptive practices on the part of these organizations. See how they treat their suppliers then worry. You would feel sorry for the businesses they get their clutches on.

You may not have taken note of what i am about to tell you but when next you are shopping look around.

With consumers having been trained to respond to price and deals, some of these large corporations in consumer goods such as grocery stores have taken to having that are typically sold in bulk actually unpacked from the format that the fatory had bundled them in and repacked into different configurations. Allowing them to advertise a price for what is apparently similar to a competitors special offer yet not the same. Its totally deceptive pricing and a deceptive offer. They know many people willl come to the store just to pick up that offer. But many and this is the game they play with statistically pick up other things while in their store. They play the odds. WIthout that deal they would not have got those people into the store and in that case not sold the "extra goods" to those that bought them. This is becoming such a racket that there are companies being set up simply to break up the manufacturers standard bundle and repackage it.
Believe it or not it pays them to do it because there are many consumers that dont read or check the detail they actually believe they got a deal.

It would not supprise me in the slightest if the HD example was one of just such deceptive practices whereby they managed to lure many many people to their site. Push up the number of viewers and possibly get them buying other items at the same time.

Dont be naive. Its war out there an i for one dont feel one bit sorry for the big corporations. They have created the situation with their style of business.

I got had just the other day by Busy Bee. Yup i swore off going into that store but they had this deal. Yeah right. It was for some push pull toggles. Part number all over the place meant that the thread in the end of the toggle should have been 5/16 but when i got these deal toggles home it was M8. Now you think they put that anywhere. No they deliberately bought a bunch of erroneously marked goods from whereelse China and sold them lowball and i took the bait hook line and sinker. They did the same with some T track insersection pieces that were of the old style of T Track and dont match the new low profile everyone is selling. Did they spell this out in the write up in their catalog or on their website, no. Devoid of any specifications because the specs would have given them away. I bought nothing else so they did not score on me but i got burnt anyway. In the long run i would rather deal with Lee Valley as a result. They honor what they sell.

The other point is testing the market. We all need to remember price we see has nothing to do with cost. So where does the price of an item get pitched. Take the grabber, its a bunch of glass filled plastic moldings with some inserts. I doubt it costs $10 bucks to make. Yet seels at what $60 and has held its price there through the distribution chain. But they will see a certain demand at that price. If it drops off they might test a lower price and see how it causes demand to pick up. There is no absolute to getting the optimum price demand curve right.

Lets remember we live in a capitalist society. Even the Chinese have gone this way.

I still buy into Dons way of conduct but that is a personal choice about how you live your life.

I also agree with Bill, the range is dropping off in the stores to the point where the special stuff is no longer available because the bean counters are working on the stock turn ratio for the bank and so want to see the stuff move.

Yet the great thing about a hardware store or at least the one i worked in while growing up was the fact that we carried all that stuff even though it did not move. And when it was sold it was replaced to be there for the next time someone wanted that oddball item. These stores have created their own demise not us by buying their bogus deals and expecting them to honor them.

But i can tell you having worked on the other side of the bench so to speak, when i was in the hardware store we also knew the people that were a persistent problem and did not pay their accounts. We had a code for them and my boss would come over when one of them appeared and he would put his foot on mine and push down and i would know exactly what i was dealing with. Lets just say they did not get any discounts which was the norm nor did they get to buy anything that had low margins on it because we knew they were going to be a while on the collections and we needed the margins to cover ourselves.

I think there is more than sufficient evidence to show that woodworkers here would in most cases support a company that deals straight up. Without hoaxes or scams or deception. Such as the use by the cell phonecompanies of the word unlimited. Yet you need to check the asterix or little number and the reams of fine print to see that unlimited which to me has only one english definition in their minds can be conditional and in fact is limited. You shopped for a new cell phone lately. I just did for my son over the period just before Christmas and it was a nightmare to wade through the deceptive practices to ascertain what exactly was or was not part of the deal and where they were planning to trip the unaware consumer up and get the supplementary billing even if only for a few months while you decided how to modify your plan or do without a feature that had apparently been implied but was in actual fact not part of your bundle. If you dont read through all their conditions you will be a victim at least here in Canada. We have more contracts and clauses and terms of conditions for a phone than you would have for buying anything else.

So Douglas sorry i dont share your sentiment when it comes to MR Big Box.
 
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