What if,, caution, some have expeirnce in this

larry merlau

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Delton, Michigan
well this something that is happening more all the time, and unfortunately some of our members are in this ship, its to big to be called a boat anymore..

your over 55, got ailments and dont move as fast as yu used to. you are in the lower positions in the corporate world. your job is either eliminated or slowed down to a point where yu are struggling to make ends meet.

the job market is dead, but yu still need to survive, you may have a house that you once had more than enough equity in and was making the mortgage just fine, now the value is less than yu owe or yur struggling to make the payments.

how does one continue to stand up and smile and let the top ones continue to push yu down.

where is one to go or do?

dont get political just be honest and think about if yu were there what would yu do..because unfortunately yu and i both might just be there sooner than we thought. so if there is a chance of gettun away and not be washed away, the ones that are here now or can see it coming need to hear the wisdom. and find the path out of this mess.
 
unfortunately, this is a sad reality many people our age have to face.
Im happy some of my friends that lost their jobs had wives/husbands that worked and were able to keep their lives somewhat normal. Ofcourse some had to use their life savings, or borrow from friends and family to keep things flowing.
I do not think there is any quick answer or easy solution.
I believe this is a time where family has to step up and lend a hand to their family members if they can afford to.
 
OK, I turned 57 in August, 2001. My birthday present from the company I worked for was a layoff notice. Unfortunately, a multi-national corporation had bought the privately-owned company I worked for, raided it and 98% of the employees wound up on the street. My last day of work was 09/07/2001. We all are familiar with what happened four days later.

Over the next few months, any positions I was qualified for had umpteen applicants, most of whom were younger than I was. We won't discuss age discrimination! I drew unemployment until it ran out nine months later. With nothing else available, I went to work in a cabinet shop at a fraction of my previous income.

The saving grace for LOML and I was our overall financial objectives since we got together in 1992. Our focus, and a lesson to you young whipper-snappers out there, was the important things. No, not expensive cars and a mortgage in the stratosphere. We had a very nice house in a great neighborhood - one that we could afford to make additional principal payments on along the way. We took nice vacations and enjoyed some fine dining but we still focused on our objective - financial security.

During the unemployment period, I dipped into some investments and paid off our house. My wife's job was still solid throughout this period. Between her job and my going to work in the cabinet shop, we did just fine.

Call it divine guidance or whatever, the job transfer from Texas to Florida in 1998 was timed well. The house we bought was quite an upgrade from what we had and it continued to appreciate gradually. Although we missed the peak values when we decided to move from Florida to Georgia, the amount we got was way more than the combined principal and interest we had paid. Since moving to Georgia, property values have remained fairly steady.

Again, our experience is not to brag or anything of the sort. No matter where you are in life, you have to make decisions about what is important. We know there are people we met along the way who thought we should "enjoy life" more; i.e., spend, spend, spend. They are among the ones who are suffering now.
 
Speaking from experience. the company that I worked for went under, I managed to find a position with another and the same thing happened. I figured well a change of carrier path was in order, I wanted to work for a large company so i figured that I would be a truck driver. paid a large amount of money got my class A license and went on the road for a large trucking company. several problems showed up early the major one was not enough miles, the economy had effected the trucking industry and if folks ain't buying then folks ain't shipping. I'd get stuck in many god forsaken place and it still costs to live. need to eat and do laundry, i could sleep in the truck but it was costing me more to live then i was making after a year I came home and we continued to deplete our saving. I started the refinishing business and being new to it have had to struggle to keep enough our heads above water and that ain't fun so again what to do. After more self evaluation I came to the conclusion that I really liked selling and especially if I was solution selling. I knew I was good at it cause i had made a lot of money through the years, but sell what in a down economy who going to buys and what are they going to buy. I started drawing my social security early but that only slowed down the bleeding. The solution came to me right after I finished the commission for the church. I had gotten friends with one of the parishioners and and his wife he was amazed at the furniture. He asked me if that was how I made my living. My answer was will it is now since the company I worked for went under. He asked me what I did and told him sales. He mentioned to me that 11 years ago he had been in the same boat when Mervins closed up shop. He said the the company he worked with was selling Life and health insurance and that they had more business then they knew what to do and were looking for agent. The only requirement was that I would have to get licensed in the state . I went down and met with the area manager, I signed on and they sent me a contract. I can't sell insurance yet but I have been working with my friend from church and have made some sales through him and he has been splitting the commissions with me This coming wed I'll take the test and hopefully be able to right my own contract and keep all the commission.

I guess what I am saying is it you enjoyed what you were doing and was good at it then if and when the ax falls look for another way to keep on doing what you know and don't try to re-invent things.
 
Wow Larry, you must be reading my mind.

I'm 61. I have been in the construction supply business since 1976. I know personally every major tool and fastener supply business owner across the country. I have always considered the customers need first and have a following of millions of dollars worth of loyal, bill paying, and dedicated customers. What's that worth today???? not a damn thing.

If I'm lucky enough to get an interview the employer tries to pick my mind and get insight on the customers he can't sell. Makes no difference that I can kick off sales immediately they end up hiring "Joe College."
I'm totally sick and tired of it. I was lucky enough to have made decent money in the past. I had 15 months of reserve cash when the experts say you should have 6 months reserve. Well it's been 18 months now and the well is dry.

Angry? you bet I'm angry. Can't sleep, getting grouchy, and have the added pressure of having kids and grandkids move back in. Good thing I have my shop downstairs or I'd be a real basket case. I am so tired of politicians and their nonsense that I can barely see straight.

I've decided to get out of the construction tool business and strike out in a different field. Don't quite know what it will be yet but I'm looking at several different ideas.

When I first got married I worked for a lumber company driving a boom truck. I wish to heck that I never decided to try and improve myself.

Wow, so sorry to vent to you folks. But it's been building up for awhile. One thing I can say for sure is I am sure grateful to FWW and the great folks I've met through here.
 
Well this ain't me yet, but just this week my little brother(47) got informed that his co was going to eliminate his job. He is the shop supervisor with 40 some workers under him. They have offered him a job in Boreno Malaysia. If he takes it he's not sure how long it will last. He probbly will have to take it as in Northeast PA there ain't many jobs that fit his work history and education. The really bad part is he just got through remolding his house and spending over 50,000 dollars of his savings on it. He said that if he could go back to andros island in the bahanas he would do that, as he worked there 7 years and really loved it.
Steve
 
Unfortunately I don't have any words of wisdom to offer you gentlemen but I do want you to know that my heart goes out to you and I'll make sure to include you in my prayers. I'm not quite there age wise (45) but with the economy being what it is, I've given the matter quite a bit of thought and frankly I haven't come up with much other than somehow doing my best to get into the health care industry. It seems to me that it's the one area where the need is only going to grow and it would be hard for employers to outsource these types of jobs to 3rd world countries.

Obviously, not everyone can be a physician (myself included) but there are many behind the scenes jobs that keep the system going.
 
I'm not at the age of some of you. Going through a layoff last year was no fun and very un-expected. Luckily we had already downsized and weren't doing so bad. A few months earlier we had came about a week too close to foreclosure than I ever care to be, luckily we found a buyer for our house and got out from under the strain. Mostly due to that I guess the job loss didn't hit me as hard as it would have.

I think when your in that situation you start really looking at what you can do to make money and where you can cut costs. I took my 2006 Silverado into Carmax and sold it to them for $3000 more than I owed. It would have been paid off in a few more months, but it was about $600 a month plus higher in insurance and taxes, which was money we needed. Not much later I luckily found a job that paid about the same as my previous, but I'm still driving the $3000 tahoe that I bought to save money. I'm hoping it will go another year or two and then I'll go buy another $3k-$4k truck. Sure I'd like to have a 'new' truck, but overall the savings helped us save the money we needed for our current house and gives us more money now to put away.

As for any advice, I'm constantly learning what I can. Employers don't pay for training like they used to. It's cheaper to let an employee go and find another that has the experience, so you've got to constantly be learning and re-training yourself to make yourself valuable.

Another option...Can any of you take your experience and put it into a consulting type of position? Be the local 'out-source' as a side job if you have one now, could turn into a full time gig if the person hiring you likes you...that's how I got on where I am. At the time I didn't realize it, but a lot of employers are bring in a person for contract work and hire them full time if they work out.

OK, probably more than you wanted to know about me...but just my .02 :wave:
 
Part 1

I dont take this topic very lightly. Forgive me for the long diatribe but i care so here is my 5 cents.

I would urge all who are in this position to read a little book. It’s been around for many years and some of you might have already heard of it or read it many years ago. If you did read it again and refresh your memory.

The title is "Who moved my cheese". Even if you hate reading get hold of a copy and read it. It’s a very small book if I remember correctly its no more than 20 to 30 pages if that.

After that consider taking yourself back to the day when you were a baby or watch your grandchildren if you have any that are just at and around the walking stage. What you will observe is nothing knew but I would urge you to pause a moment and think about it.

Animals are born and walk or get eaten. We have to learn. It’s the big thing that distinguishes us from them. When we are babies we get up and try to walk make the mistake of over reaching with those undeveloped muscles and sense of balance and fall. Sometimes or often as it was in my son’s case, we get hurt in the process too. That however does not stop us from getting up. We may need a nap and a meal but we get over it and in our hunger to progress try again the next day. Of course the reaction around us spurs us on too.

Yet we seem to reach a magical number that’s slightly different for each of us and is around 50 when we have had a fair number of years and experiences. We have fallen many times and felt the pain. These experiences tempered our appetite for risk and allowed we begin to allow fear of failure to dominate our actions.

The very actions and decisions that we used to make become agonizing to make for fear of failure. The consequence is fear becomes paralyzing and inevitably we begin to play life so safe that in some cases I have seen people jeopardize their career through indecision and risk avoidance at work. Do you really think the company employed you for the boss to have to make all the decisions.

Many of you in my perception of you are incredibly self reliant and pretty disciplined in many areas of your life you share here. If you stop for a moment and reflect on this. Yet for some uncanny reason have been conditioned to the concept of a "job" in the same way the woman (forgive me ladies but it’s my experience of the majority of you) seem to think that owning your own home is security. There is no security in a job and absolutely none in a house you do not own and has a mortgage. Even if you do own it it’s not a liquid asset and so restricts your ability to go and seek cheese elsewhere.

The recent fall out across the world has proven both of these points.

So I find it fascinating that self reliant people are willing to subject themselves to becoming nothing more than the serfs of the middle ages working for the landlord or the banker. For that is what people do when they have a job in my opinion.

The issue to me is you have to allow your instincts to kick in and hunt for work the same way you hunt for a deer. Selling yourself and your abilities and you certainly will find you that you have a string of abilities some that you have not even thought of or given consideration to with the focus on your situation.
 
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Part 2

Its my view the next generation will not have one employer but will simultaneously work for several companies or people at the same time and in so doing derive a living. If they aren’t flexible and multi talented or highly specialized and expert in a specific field they are not going to cut it just as happens and has been happening in the 3rd world.

You have to be prepared to allow yourself to dream again. To believe you can do it and that you have value. But you need to get back to believing in yourself.
There is a great deal of truth in the saying we are our own worst enemies. For we can be our own worst critics and beat ourselves up when we fail worse than anyone else can ever do. If you have a habit of doing this you need to consider stopping for you are destroying yourself in your own self speak. Yeah we all expect to not be making the stupid mistakes we all do. But most of you from what I gather are religious and those teachings make you aware that you aint perfect and in fact never will be as long as you human. So cut yourself some slack. Circumstances caused a change, a change that is traumatic at a mature age. There is comfort in knowing you not alone. But that is only if you want to wallow in self pity.

I have a suggestion to make that will help you get back some of your spark if you will follow through diligently one what I say next.

I would urge you if you find yourself in this place to sit down at the computer and write out your life story to date. Start with your very first job. You are writing to yourself. This document is for your eyes only, not even your spouse gets to see it, for you need to be incredibly honest with yourself and recall all your war stories, (figure of speech here). Don’t worry and get hung up on grammar and spelling get it out on the word processor and write as if you are telling a confident and speaking to a second person. Tell that invisible person all your little anecdotes and quirky experiences. Remember the times when you had great success, remember how you got punched in the face by the journeyman after you shorten his 8 inch adjustable wrench when you shorted it on a huge bank of batteries and experienced the power of direct current. Remember the recognition you have received over the years, the people and supervisors or bosses you have had. Remember what they taught you without you even being aware they were doing it.

You will have moments when you need a hanky or Kleenex to wipe the eyes, and there will be moments when you will have a good laugh to yourself as you remember specific events. Work through all the years. Take your time and be thorough. You might think I am crazy suggesting this but trust me you will be surprised at what happens to you. If you can do as much as you can in one session. Get a cup a coffee and go for it. If needs be stop have a bite and go at it again. Then let me know what happened.

In my work I meet with business owners on a frequent basis. People that I have never met before. The starting point after my intro once they are at ease and we have developed some rapport, is to get them to kick off and tell me their life story and how they got into the business they now find themselves in. For the majority (if they take the appointment) I know their business is like an anchor around their neck pulling them ever deeper into the abyss. Believe it or not for many or I would go so far as to say most of the small privately owned, business owners life is a living nightmare. You would not think it but if you can penetrate their hard veneer that they have so skillfully managed to weave over the years they are having a tougher time than anyone else around. They are incredibly lonely. They have all their assets tied up in the business and their wife no longer listens to them. If they could most of them would fire themselves.

There are a few little demons that have been allowed to manifest themselves in their head over time. These guys come to the fore and rule their life. Mr. Fear and Anger, Mr. Self imposed Doubt and a few others that are too lengthy to explain here.

What happens is over the years they become not any different to the person who works for them. In many cases you. By around 50 they will tell you they have seen it all. They now know what works and what does not and this is how it is.

Now think about this rationally. Life is not the way it was 30 years ago.

30 years ago we did not have the internet and smart phones with apps for all sorts.

Why it was only 1989 (21 years ago)when the Soviet Union came crashing down and in my case I was thrust into the business of selling payphones and sold these critters to many of the former soviet block countries in Eastern Europe. Now consider, what were the odds of a South African company from a country which was as anti communist as could be, had sanctions imposed on it by the whole world, succeeding against organizations from Western Europe (namely the Swiss (Landis and Gyr, Danes ( Great Northern Telecom), French and British/German GEC PLESSY Telecoms consortium) that had been in existence since the telephone was invented and were 1000 times more powerful than we were had way more money and brighter engineers. To add to it we went cold calling because we did not know a soul. I remember my first meetings in Poland with the telecommunication authority (their Verizon or Bell) were like a CIA agent would have and were held on a clandestine basis in a Chicken sausage factory to disguise our presence. A month later I was sitting in the Minister of Telecommunications offices and 6 months later we were delivering field trial units and by the end of a year after that were signing deals and delivering thousand of payphones.

Today 21 years later however payphones are practically obsolete.

How can we say we have seen it all before and predict that this is how it will work out when the boss suggest we try something crazy.

Nothing in the last 30 years has remained static not even my weight.

The issue is you have to go back to taking the risks you took as a baby. When you fail you get up and go again. That’s what we tell ourselves in woodworking. Chuck has made the point in many ways so many times that if we never cut the wood and stare at it we will have it forever. But we won’t get to make anything that way. We have to dig down and get the excitement of the hunt that we used to get when we were having fun at work.

I believe the exact same thing applies to all of us in the way we earn a living.

Maybe in our case back in South Africa we so had our backs to the wall that we had nothing to loose. My first 6 week trip into the world marketing at around age 26/7 and selling with absolutely no selling or marketing training was a dictate from my boss. I was not even asked if I could or would manage to go. I was ordered to like you are in the military, and then loaded up with brochures that had been made only


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Part 3

the week prior all in English and was sent off selling such a range of systems it was not even funny. Some I knew no more than what had been put on the brochure. Ad to that I was told not to come home without an order. You want to talk fear? I was scared out of my wits. The first stop was Poland from there to Brazil, from there to Argentina, Chile and finally Colombia where I nearly got myself assassinated by the drug cartel for exposing fraud in the telephone company without the intent during my presentation to all the senior managers.

This trip made star trek look like a walk in the park, talk about going where no man has gone before. and I was a pipsqueak.

But our president at the time was visionary and set a strategic goal that we had to achieve a 30% growth in exports by the next year end or we were finished. 30% off a zero base with no fancy internet or databases to do research from mama mia.

Now don’t take what I am saying wrong, I aint bragging, I am trying to show you that if you think back you too had some crazy kind of experiences that shaped your outlook. Back in those days you knew no different kind of like a young grunt in the army. There is good reason why the grab us at a young age and send us to war at 18 we are invincible that is until the bullets fly the other way.

So what we I believe we need to retain and in some cases rejuvenate, as we get older is the ability to dream and to adventure and the willingness to apply ourselves without being a constant skeptic to dealing with the task at hand with all the gusto that we once did. Retain a little of the adolescent and juvenile sense of bravado. And when we trip and make a mistake as we all inevitably will do, laugh it off get up again as we did when we were babies and try again.

You see my attitude when we talk about woodworking as a living. Many say you cannot make it work. You have witnessed me time and time again take on any comers in this area. Why do you think that is? The day I don’t believe it’s possible is the day you put me in a coffin. I cannot allow that kind of thinking in my mind. You have to regain the belief you once had once again and believe nothing is impossible.

Many of you will remember John F. Kennedy. Before you all get political on me, I don’t care if you republican or democrat. You are Americans first and foremost.
Think back to some of the inspirational speeches he made. The asset of these speeches is to unlock the vision and ability we all have to dream and believe that the impossible is possible. Remember the excitement we experienced when Armstrong landed on the moon. I had to listen to it on a radio. We did not have TV until 1975.
Remember you are still one of the mightiest nations on the planet. Take a look back at your collective achievements as a nation. Your country enabled the winning of a war the likes of which the world has never seen. Without those ships you guys built, without those Sherman tanks and without the planes it would not have happened. Yeah my Dad likes to think the Royal Navy did it but why spoil his beliefs at this stage of his life.

You put a man on the moon. You have built aircraft like the Blackbird, and the B2 bomber. You have developed technology that has brought freedom and knowledge to much of the world through the internet. Each and every one of you in some way shape or form played a part even if you were a carpenter building houses.
Now do you believe you are finished and over because the economy is tough and there is a realignment of the rules taking place.

You need to first believe in yourself and get back your self esteem. Without that how can you be of use to anyone else? Then get creative like we did in South Africa. What have you got to loose when you at the bottom. I always tell people everything is up from there. You got to get rid of Self Imposed doubt and stamp the little weasel out.

Bob with those connections you have think about how valuable you could be to an offshore competitor. I can give you many tips on how to use that knowledge to your advantage. If the locals wont employ you seek out a competitor. In relative terms when I had my business back in SA if I could have got access to a guy like you in the field I was in, I would have been over the moon. Those external competitors don’t know you exist and don’t know what you could do. If they don’t have a US presence and its quite possible, you could be their agent. Yeah you have to travel again, but it will be at your own doing this time around. Do some research on the internet. There are loads of companies that want to sell their wares in places like the US. Think of a niche fastner maker in a place like Czechia. They have darn good mechanical engineers. Heck they make the Narex chisels that have been so talked about and they were one of the largest producers of the best automatic rifle there is the dreaded AK47. So they should know something. Remember you don’t need to sell tons you are not going to be supporting the overhead at a company. If you don’t like that idea think of the other things those customers of yours used to sell that you would like to have a go at that might be more in demand at present. Call a few up and talk to them. Last time I looked you lived in a free country. Find out what they struggle to obtain that they would be happy to buy from you. Then see if you can source it. It’s a lot easier than you think but it takes belief. So what if the first place rejects you. Try the next. Get enough irons in the fire that something has to come off. This is how guys our age can get back to hunting for work. You don’t have to give up the job interviewing, but you will feel a great deal better when you have something that could potentially turn out to be a winner happening and you are in the drivers seat.

If the house around your neck is going to pull you down soon, get to see your bank. Your government has plans that are able to help you retain your house. If you say nothing to no one, no one can help you. If you leave it too late, the ability and options they have to help you are minimized. No bank truly wants another foreclosure property on their hands right now. They can get very creative when they want, remember how they bailed Donald Trump out way back when. You don’t need to be aggressive just go and negotiate.

Oh boy as you can imagine I could go on and on I feel for you every single one. But the secret to the guys who get lucky is not luck itself, its putting yourself in a position to be lucky.

I hope this long long post helps cheer some of you up and gives you some food for thought. Remember economies work in cycles. They go up and down. When its down at some point its going to go back up.

Most of all, keep your faith, hold on to your family and talk to your missus.
 
Well, im not even close to 55. However i hope things dont get much worse. Bewing limited to what i do and how i do it make holding a regular job impossible. In this erea they are still closeing plants on a regular bases and others are laying off hands full. I have no advice of what to do, other thencut back on living as much as possible and hope you can ride it out without loseing everything.
 
That's was a great question and good for some real thought provoking... fortunately, I'm in a position where I'm really not effected too much...
in August 2005 I reached a milestone in my career... 40 years in my industry.. the market was still relatively strong, I was working for the largest export packing company in the Houston area and we were still pretty strong. The owner kept a close watch on work levels, payroll levels, etc... I ran a division of the company and over the 10 years I was there, my department had shrunk to just me, but at the end of the year, I had always shown a profit level and the boss was happy. But I was reaching a burn out point and my wife's job was putting way too much stress on her. She was with an international household company that was closely tied to the oil industry... plus we both had an hour's commute in opposite directions from the house. I turned 64 in Sept 2005 and she turned 62 in Oct... we decided to take the equity out of our house in Houston and put it into the little place we had already bought in Tennessee. We filed for early retirement... the wife lost about 25% for early retiring, I lost about 6%... but had a little pension from TWA where I worked from 1965 to 1976 that made up that little difference... we had both vehicles paid off and scaled back everything else we could and have settled in here for the duration... it's tough on just SS, but with a little extra here and there from my wood working, we get by pretty well. If we don't have any major changes, we'll be fine.
 
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your over 55, .....
you may have a house that you once had more than enough equity in and was making the mortgage just fine, now the value is less than yu owe or yur struggling to make the payments.

I'm 46 and I hope (and plan) to have no mortgage by age 55

I'm sure I've read at least one or two financial planning advisors make comments about when people should no longer be holding mortgages. And it seems to me it was by that age.

But I really have no idea as to stats out there. How large a percentage of the population still has a mortgage at age 55? age 60?
 
Remember folks keep politics out of it.

And there is one of the big issues. I have seen nothing even remotely political yet.. It is very hard to have a discussion without expressing a point of view.

My point of view is that people need to be started being looked as assets not liabilities....and this has to start in business schools.

The idea old fair days work for a fair days pay needs to be returned to.

Just this morning I had 2 fillings at my dentist. He doesn't take insurance and I don't have dental insurance. Now him and a technician worked on me for 30-45 minutes, and I was in a high priced chair in an office that is not cheap. He used supplies on me from pain killer to modern epoxies and ultraviolet curing lamps. I wrote him a check for 90.00 and I think we are both pretty happy. I had a cleaning on Wednesday and the same lady cleaned my teeth that did it two years ago so his staff seems to last as well.

Now compare this to a local dental chain that closed the doors that had 13 offices, took insurance and pre charged for some procedures. They couldn't make it but I'll bet my bill for the same services would have been 3 times what I paid.

The difference is my dentist wants to be a dentist and make a good living, whole those owners wanted as much as they could get. And the only winners from the chain that folded will be the lawyers.


I myself managed to last 33 years at the last job and have a retirement that so far covers insurance and gives me some to live on. I took early SS and haven't looked back. So all I can say is that I have no desire to go out and beat any of you out of a job. I see this as my small way to try and help the economy, don't take a job away from some one that really needs it just because I would like to have a new car. My three only have a little over 600k between the three of them.

All my working life I tried to live under my means and I never felt that I was missing much, never had any desire for a big house. Now a farm would have been nice but now I tend to think of it as probably work which I can do without.

In fact one year while I was having my performance review and there was some disagreement about how many hours I should put in I told my boss that I worked to live I didn't live to work. And he was getting 50-55 hours a week out of me for fixed a salary, and still wanted more.

The one thing I learned is that the more gruff you take the more they are ready to hand out. And logic very rarely works on managers or accountants.

Not really much advice here but no one will respect you till you respect yourself. And as well as I did over those 33 years and as much as I liked my job if I was to do it over I might have tried to make it on my own.

I think the only advice I can give is to try and live under you means when things are going well and be a skeptic about every offer of anything that is too good to be true. Try and do something you are good at and don't hate. You can hate a job for a year or two but it would get real old ti hate a job for 30 years..
 
Morning Larry, I would love to answer this but the restrictions set forth by the WW powers that be will not let me express how I have come to the place in my life I have or what I know to be a positive way to build on a productive live with not wanting for anything.
BTW I had a AWESOME time :thumb: You come back to Md ya hear:wave: Jarrod is still on a hot pursuit of Mr. Big.
 
... have the added pressure of having kids and grandkids move back in. ...

This is where I draw the line, for sure. We didn't make our own way to financial security just to let the kids mess up our lives. Call it tough love or whatever, I had to figure out a way to make things work throughout my life. Sometimes, it was hard to make it from one paycheck to the next, but we made it happen. It's interesting that my kids always found a way out of a bind when I discussed alternatives with them and gave them some encouragement.
 
Bill i tend to agree with you 100% but in defense of Bobs situation this has become the new dilemma of our age.

I have many times examined this issue of the value of a kid studying and coming out of school with a loan that is humongous or a large amount of cash that has been sunk into that education by the parents.

My jury is still out, but i cannot help but feel that if that same youngster started a trade and had the same intellectual abilities they supposedly have to be able to make it into the school, applied to the aspect of learning a trade and becoming a real pro at it, and then that same cash is invested in their using it to establish a business, I cannot help but think that the trade guy would be way way better off and have much more self control over his/her destiny.

Especially when i factor in the fact that many trades in Canada are at present is serious difficulties as far as the average age of the group is concerned. The youngsters have been so put off doing a trade by parents for essentially the perception that they gonna be better off with this "education" but i fail to see how this works out unless you happen to be lucky to be in the small minority of the work force that becomes one of the wall street execs or the Corporate CEO's and a great many execs i have met did not spend a fortune for an education either.

So a kid goes and ends up leaving school with a pile of debt, then have to have transport because public transport usually travels to a hub in our part of the world that is typically the city, but when you need to go east to west to get to work as opposed to North South as the public transit service goes you then need a vehicle. In Canada its law that you have insurance which if the youngster is under 25 and has not got 5 stars driving experience will add at least 3-4 hundred dollars to the cost of a vehicle. Then think about a place to stay. Lets assume they dont have TV and dont have cell or any other phone or even the internet. Their rent is going to add a min of 6 to 8 hundred dollars to that running total. Then there is the essential of food. So when you start out from school with the loan and on your own and if you lucky land a job and then with that job after taxes and deductions if you can make ends meet as a youngster at this level you doing very well. So what was the benefit of all the study. :dunno:

And we wonder why there is population decline in the developed world. :D

After that experience would you blame them if they never have kids and start a family.

In my view we are going to see more of this aspect of kids moving back home. It will be the only way the fixed overheads of living will be diluted to enable them to free themselves of the study debt.

I nearly fell out my tree the other day watching colledge football and i head a University in Texas was $40 thousand a year. So if you do a 3 or 4 year course you invested $160 in an education. Put that money in sensible stocks and i dont see how there is a payback that can compare. Given the return on investment only accrues when the cost of staying alive and maintaining the income has been paid for. Talk about loan sharking.
 
This is where I draw the line, for sure. We didn't make our own way to financial security just to let the kids mess up our lives. Call it tough love or whatever, I had to figure out a way to make things work throughout my life. Sometimes, it was hard to make it from one paycheck to the next, but we made it happen. It's interesting that my kids always found a way out of a bind when I discussed alternatives with them and gave them some encouragement.


It's not an easy situation but it was an easy decision. We are all about family. We are here for each other when needed. If that means added financial pressure on my wife and myself then so be it. They do understand the pressure and are doing what they can to help. They also know it's not a permanent solution for them, it's temporary until they can get back on their feet.

Would we do it again to help out our children. You bet you butt we would.
 
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