Cabinet Table Saw Question

Which Cabinet Table Saw should Cynthia upgrade to?

  • She should get a SawStop for $2800 base, there is no 2nd choice.

    Votes: 18 48.6%
  • She should spend around $1500 and get some other things that she needs

    Votes: 10 27.0%
  • She should suck it up and use her contractor's saw

    Votes: 4 10.8%
  • She should ask the question after we have judged photos of 3 finished projects.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • She should give me an all-expense paid trip to visit her and evaluate her woodworking first hand

    Votes: 5 13.5%

  • Total voters
    37
  • Poll closed .
I'd like to ask a question, but I don't want to start an argument over safety issues, so please let's not get ugly.

It's very clear to me that after I finish these bookcases, I'd like to move to a bigger "cabinet" table saw. I find it really hard to work with big pieces on a "contractor's saw". I know it's a common mistake of beginners not to realize that the table saw is super important and is like the center of your shop.

Up here in western Canada, a Sawstop (the middle model) is about $2800 base price. For that money, it seems to me I could get a really good cabinet saw that doesn't have the Sawstop safety equipment *and* a bunch of other stuff......So I'd like to know what people think......Right now I have the Bosch contractor's saw.

Now I'm all for safety, don't get me wrong, but I'm a) just a "hobby" woodworker, not a professional so b) I don't log nearly as many hours as some and c) I'm SUPER safety conscious and don't get my hands ANYWHERE NEAR the blade. I probably am a foot from the blade at all times. So I suspect I'm not as at risk as lots of others.

Anyway, I'd like to hear what people think is the best decision for me, and I'm going to put up a poll if I can remember how to do that....:D
 
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Your Bosch saw, although at the top of the heap for its class, is a portable job-site saw. Your recent project involves large pieces of sheet goods which are a challenge on any saw not properly equipped but, really awkward on a smaller, lighter machine.

The reason I point this out is to make sure you are not making a long term decision on your most recent experiences. My dad spent a load of dough outfitting his shop and it turns out he slipped into lathe land. Tools we both have that I use so much that I have upgraded them, he will hardly use.

Options:

First an opinion; I would not "upgrade" to anything in a contractor format so, if the Saw Stop you are talking about is not a cabinet saw format, I'd pass.

- Build you current saw into a base to compensate for the lack of stability and capacity. This could be a fun project, be tailored to your space but would surely involve throwing a couple hundred bucks or so at a decent fence.

- Buy a better quality hybrid or lower cost cabinet saw (with a riving knife) for around $1000 - $1500. There will still be some outfeed requirements but that is true for all saws dealing with large or long material. You will not build built-ins forever, sooner or later you'll need a dresser, a table, a desk.

- Assuming it is a cabinet saw format, buy the Saw Stop and have the advantages of a cabinet saw plus the "flesh seeking saw blade" control technology.

None of this rambling really tells you what to do but, from my travels through different saws I can say that I learned:

- I don't use sheet goods near as much as I thought I would and am glad I did not outfit my shop like I built kitchens for a living; it wouldn't suit what I have grown to do.

- despite throwing every improvement and after-market add-on I needed to add to my contractor saw, I still needed to move on.

- I bought one of the best rated hybrid saws of the time and it has served me very well (cabinet saws of the time started at about double the cost).

- If I were to choose from saws available today I would spend an extra $200 - $300 and get a 3HP cabinet saw with a riving knife.

That's my contribution.
 
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I feel that you and I are in similar situations in regard to equipment and experience, if I remember correctly.

You have to ask yourself what about the saw makes it awkward to saw large items - is it because it's not heavy, or is it because it's not heavy duty. If it's because it's not heavy duty, then there's no getting around the fact that you need a more powerful saw. And if you're going to spend the money, a hybrid or a cabinet saw is definitely the answer here.

As for the non-SawStop vs SawStop argument, I will say my opinion may be a bit colored. I don't particular care for the inventor, or the added expense of additional cartridges (above the one that would get replaced for free) or ruining blades, but by all accounts they made a hell of a saw, and would do anything you asked it to do. If money isn't an object, then do it. I would, if I had the money, even though I think the technology may be a bit superfluous and there may be additional choices in a few years.

However I know money doesn't flow that freely for most of us, so if I had to get a more powerful saw I'd probably spend less than half of that and get something that will work just as well without the built-in technology.


Now, if the problem is that the saw isn't heavy enough, then that's easily fixed and for a LOT less money. If you've got the room, make a saw station. Sure you'll lose the convenience of your gravity rise stand, but you'll gain so much more versatility. Something like this would probably be right up your alley. I've been considering something similar with my Craftsman 21829 (link, for reference), but room really says I can't do that. So I make do with my saw, which is slightly heavier, but probably a bit more underpowered than yours.

My saw will cut through 8/4 purpleheart without bogging down, albeit with a bit of burning on the wood - which I'm in the process of fixing with a more appropriate blade and better technique. Sheet goods shouldn't be a problem for you, so I'm guessing it's the weight and bulk that makes you feel uncomfortable.

I use a couple of different techniques to help with sheet stock. First, I have a very nice guide clamp (the 50", seen here) that I use to cut all my crosscuts first with my circular saw (and it's an underpowered, undersized cordless). Once I have those done, I do my rip cuts. For those times where a 8' long rip cut just has to be done, there's no way I'd do it on a table saw unless I had a full cabinet saw and someone to help. Alone? I'll buy the 8' version of that clamp first and do it on the ground or on a set of 4-5 sawhorses.

To do that currently I have something similar to this, which I can't really recommend. Alone, the pieces work as they are supposed to. Together, there's a lot of flex in the middle which can't guarantee you get a straight cut. It's what I had to use for my pantry, and I can tell you I see I got what I paid for.

You've got a good saw, with some good safety features already built-in (riving knife, Smart Guard, pawls). If your fence works well, the saw is powerful enough, and you're comfortable with your technique in regards to being safe, I don't see a reason to spend the huge amount on a cabinet saw right now be it a Steel City or a SawStop. Get yourself a nice 8' clamping guide, build a nice sturdy mobile base for your saw, and enjoy the savings.
 
If the money isn't a priority and you're sure you'll be woodworking for a while, I'd go with the sawstop, or even the 3hp sawstop. If the money is a driving factor, grizzly makes some nice cabinet saws around $1300 now, my brother just got one. It's a nice saw, I wish I had the money for it when I bought my craftsman.


A 50" cut cabinet saw doesn't by itself make 3/4" sheets of plywood easy to cut. They're still a pain to move around and cut. Good infeed/outfeed tables make more of a difference imho. I have a 450 lb hybrid saw, but choose not to cut full sheets on the table saw because I feel I have more control with a skill saw breaking it down.

I agree with everything glenn said there too :)
 
if money is not the main deciding factor, buy the sawstop. Youll be happier in 20 years from now when youre still banging out furniture and can cook butt chili and have all your fingers to help open the jars.
dont let 1200 dollars stand in the way of your safety.
 
You're putting enough money into getting your shop setup now. I say get what you want and pay the extra 1200.

Think about that would only be 3 sheets of plywood a month for the next 12 months...
 
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Great advice and opinions already expressed.

I recommend you go ahead and buy the Sawstop cab saw. I have been through 4 saws already, and am still working towards a Sawstop cab saw. My last purchase was about 15 years ago, at the time I chose between a Powermatic 66, which sold new for $1600, and a PM 63 Artisan [contractor's] saw which sold for $700. I cheaped out. For 15 years I have regretted not buying the better saw, though at the time of the purchase I convinced myself that I was only a hobbyist, not a pro. I think a cab saw - of whichever brand you choose - is simply a better tool than a contractors saw. Like a good plane, I think there is satisfaction in its use. Adjusting the blade with a smooth and accurate mechanism provides more enjoyment than dealing with a balky one. And we are woodworking for pleasure, not occupation right?

Then there is safety. I have seen many injuries on tablesaws. Most happen in a fraction of a second. Some are life altering. And yes, good technique and safety consciousness does a lot to prevent accidents. But humans make mistakes, and accidents do sometimes happen, under the best of circumstances. If one can afford the additional safety, then why not have it. Depending on your financial situation, cost may be the final arbiter of your choice. I know I'd gladly plunk down $1.5K to keep a finger or more, and though the chance of such severe injury is little, isn't the extra cost worth the extra protection?

I keep telling myself it's time to buy a SS, and I keep delaying, more than anything because the nearest dealer is over 2 hours away; so bear in mind that some of my thinking may be biased because I am telling you to do what I want to do for myself....
 
You're putting enough money into getting your shop setup now. I say get what you want and pay the extra 1200.

Think about that would only be 3 sheets of plywood a month for the next 12 months...

I know I'd gladly plunk down $1.5K to keep a finger or more, and though the chance of such severe injury is little, isn't the extra cost worth the extra protection?

One little accident or moment of inattention could cost way more than the extra cost of the saw and a pile of extra cartridges and blades for the saw as well...

I bought a Grizz 1023Z several years ago and while I like it just fine, if I was in the market, I'd probably go for the SS now.
 
if the difference in cost is only 1200 dollars for the saw stop then i to feel that my fingers or some else's after i am done with it is more valuable. if your set on a cab saw and then go for saw stop.. the riving knife and the dust collection can add a big plus to the saw and to get those additions on a existing saw or lesser model will be added cost that may not be reflected in the price tag there are posting..
 
From the reviews I have seen, the Sawstop is a great cab saw in the price range without considering the technology, so if you decide to spend the money for a cab saw in this price range - go Sawstop and get the extra safety factor.*

If you want to spend less money for a saw - then Grizz seems to be a good choice for a solid machine.

*-the extra safety factor will also mean some extra effort and attention for set up and monitoring what material you are cutting. Don't want to set off the brake except for real protection issues.
 
You're putting enough money into getting your shop setup now. I say get what you want and pay the extra 1200.

Think about that would only be 3 sheets of plywood a month for the next 12 months...

I think that would assume she has already set aside the $1600 for a cabinet saw. If not, that's $2800 - a fair bit of difference.

Then again, $1600 is about what I've spent on my entire workshop, so I may have a different perspective.



Whatever you do Cynthia, just remember the easiest money to spend is someone else's.
 
I voted sawstop only because I hope to grow old and be able to work in my woodshop with my grandchildren. Money aside, I don't want to know I could have prevented one of my grandchildren from getting cut or losing body parts. One finger, one guilty conciense (sp?) and that 1200 is peanuts.
 
ok i am gonna throw out a what if... using my past experience in archery i had a lighted pin that i loved it had rheostat in it to adjust the brightness from daylight to darker.. anyway the product got dropped after several years of being in service.. cant get one anywhere now or even similar,, so lets take this new saw that has this electronic brake system,, what if the components become obsolete or the maker goes out of business for the brake part..now we got saw that isnt the saw it once was??? so whats your take on this???? not sayun that saw stop isnt agood saw it is but with out the brake its another table saw right..
 
If I'm reading this right, your real issue is the difficulty handling larger sheet good parts on a TS. If that's the case, why not a track saw? A Festool TS55 and one or two longer rails will handle plywood cutting beautifully and much more easily than a TS.

I happen to own both a SawStop and a TS55 and I can tell you that the TS55 gives me a better quality cut than the SS on plywood. There is absolutely NO chipout even on the finickiest plywood. With just a little care, you make final cuts directly from the full sheet. You can throw in a Festool MFT/3 and clamps and you're still about 1/2 the cost of the SS.

And, unless you're a complete idiot, there's no way you get anywhere near the blade on a TS55 :)
 
anyway the product got dropped after several years of being in service.. cant get one anywhere now or even similar,, so lets take this new saw that has this electronic brake system,, what if the components become obsolete or the maker goes out of business for the brake part..now we got saw that isnt the saw it once was??? so whats your take on this???? not sayun that saw stop isnt agood saw it is but with out the brake its another table saw right..

If there's a market for the brakes with SS out of business, plenty of people will step up. And probably much cheaper, assuming the patent isn't purchased as part of the closure.

And besides, even discounting the brake, the SS is one heck of a saw. I had my choice of the SS or a PM2000, even without the brake I would have gotten the SS (and that from someone with more than his fair share of mustard in the shop).
 
If I'm reading this right, your real issue is the difficulty handling larger sheet good parts on a TS. If that's the case, why not a track saw? A Festool TS55 and one or two longer rails will handle plywood cutting beautifully and much more easily than a TS.

I happen to own both a SawStop and a TS55 and I can tell you that the TS55 gives me a better quality cut than the SS on plywood. There is absolutely NO chipout even on the finickiest plywood. With just a little care, you make final cuts directly from the full sheet. You can throw in a Festool MFT/3 and clamps and you're still about 1/2 the cost of the SS.

And, unless you're a complete idiot, there's no way you get anywhere near the blade on a TS55 :)

Not a bad idea, Cliff.

Lots of great ideas, everyone.......I'll have to think about it some more.

And yes, Cliff, I like to think I'm smarter than a dial tone. :)
 
I'm with Cliff. Kinda... ;)

The lost fingers argument is a good one. But most of us won't lose fingers. What we *will* do is worry about losing fingers.

My best metaphor is electricity. Every outlet in my shop is GFCI protected. I used to worry about getting electrocuted in my shop. I don't anymore. Does that mean I get careless with cords, or stick screwdrivers in my sockets? Of course not. It's just insurance against me doing something stupid. And I need all the insurance I can get. I am *not* smarter than a dial tone! Compared to me, dial tones deserve the Nobel prize! :rofl:

So if I could not be worried about my fingers going into the blade, that would be cool. The contractor version of the sawstop would fix that.

But do I really want to wrestle full sheets of ply onto a table saw? Been there, done that, durned near killed myself. By doing something stupid! If I hadn't been leaning forward, and been well braced, I hate to think what would have happened. :doh:

But even without that safety problem, it's a big hassle. That's why I got my festool. I got the TS75, and I think it's worth the extra little bit. I've used it for all sorts of things, and it's a joy. And no more wrestling, no more messing up a cut because I'm trying to manage some big old piece of plywood.

So I suggest you get the contractor version, and build a cabinet for it. Add a router table into the cabinet. And get the festool. You can do all that for the 3K you're going to spend for the big sawstop... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Ok I have seen all the options heard all the suggestions and i have not voted because i dont see a choice i can select at this stage.

Here is my view.

1) Before you buy any more tools, spend some money on some woodworking lessons with an experienced machine shop veteran that knows how to teach you the techniques for safe use of your machines for each one you have and are likely to get.

2) Add to 2 having him test you after the lessons and do it spread out over time so you learn one at a time and thoroughly.

Some of us newbies are hanging out here with real pros. Much of what they do is now second nature. We take that for granted. They dont even think of some of their well ingrained safety habits.

See i think of this like a person that is a hesitant nervous driver on the road. To me they just as dangerous as the maniac.

Before we drive a car we get lessons and practice then have a competency test. Yeah we often wonder how some drivers got their license but to me all you looking to do is buy a bigger car with more airbags etc in it. That is not going to insure your safety or others that might be around you, when you working with machines.

Trial and error is one with with benign hand tools but when a cutting edge is involved i think one needs to learn how to approach the whole situation.

Your choice of machine then will be way more competently performed and you will be able to better evaluate the pros and cons.

I think its just dangerous to fall into the trap that the Sawstop is the be all and end all of the dangers of working with a table saw or any other machine for that matter.

Whats more is just like in golf once you pick up bad habits its hard to retrain to the good ones. Hence i say have the pro test you and harshly so such that you have engrained the correct habits.

I am 100% sure if one of the more experienced guys was in my shop when i am working, they would notice something that i do that would turn them cold from a safety point of view and i would probably be blissfully unaware regardless of how much one thinks one understands the machines.

Don also mentioned if you going to be cutting up sheet goods to make up cabs or the like, set yourself up with a good track saw like you see the pros have. Even guys who know they are very expensive compared to others will buy a Festool track saw to do this safely.

Another option you have not mentioned which i am sure Brian the glassman will love me for, is why not take your bosch and make a home for it like Alan did recently. You can make this with a larger outfeed table and transform your saw into a quasi table saw with a large surface area that would make it a degree safer for cutting sheet goods.

Also get some supports like this to help support things when they come off the other side.

Thats my 2 cents.:D Sorry i could not vote at this stage.;)


apologies i did not mean to repeat the festool suggestion i did not see those while i was typing
 
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