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Hope this isn't crossing the line..

Vaughn

I laughed too, and I agree it was a parody, but........ I just don't know how to draw the line. The post that was pulled was, to me, not a comment on the war, but on the sacrifices that our volunteers are making over there. That is what I took from it, clearly others saw it in another way, and there in lies the rub.

This is a good learning exercise for all of us, hopefully we can come to an understanding of what is, and isn't, "political".


Jay
 
Jay Knoll said:
Vaughn

I laughed too, and I agree it was a parody, but........ I just don't know how to draw the line. The post that was pulled was, to me, not a comment on the war, but on the sacrifices that our volunteers are making over there. That is what I took from it, clearly others saw it in another way, and there in lies the rub.

This is a good learning exercise for all of us, hopefully we can come to an understanding of what is, and isn't, "political".


Jay
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Jay I didn't watch the vidio due to packing things up prior to my move the speakers are not hooked up, but I have been watching the thread. I have mixed feeling on a post like this or your original post. This is a wood working forum and we as members are building something that we can use as a tool to help us as well as help others in the craft that we all love. We have on one hand said in our COC that political and religious post are verboten yet we allow posters to say that we will pray for someone who is distressed or lost a loved one. I guess it's a fine line we tread. Tough call and hard to set some firm guide lines. For instance if someone says they are dead set against a political candidate then thats political however if I quote a politician is it political is that not ? For instance I believe Sir Winston Churchill said " If we fail to study history then history is bound to repaete itself." Now is that political becuaser I quoted a politician.

:huh: :dunno:
 
I'd just like to add that this thread did not provoke any flame wars, it certainly could. I have to make the "thin end of the wedge" argument here. If it's allowed to pass without notice, then how can we justify taking action against another thread in future which does deteriorate into name calling?

It's possible that someone could post the very same link next year in October and it might be not be received as well.

Politics and religion are a powder keg. The best way to keep political and religious debates from breaking out is to have a zero tolerance policy, IMO. With the CoC written as they are now, I think there's a good case for enforcing that.

To use an example - some racist jokes can be funny, but we prohibit them on principle (that's my policy in life as well as online). Politics can also be humourous at times, but I would prefer that we lose out on a few laughs rather than make exceptions to the rule.

:soapbox:
 
Oddly enough, I'd have thought it inappropriate if Mr. Bush was not involved in it as a self-parody. How strange it is that this makes a difference.

I don't find the original post violates the COC anymore than discussion of prayers do. For one thing the origninal post only linked to the material, and did not discuss it or express any opinion other than that it was humorous (I see Bart has beat me to that point). As Vaughn points out, the video makes no attempt to influence the opinions of its audience, there is no implied critique of any political positions or actions.

John
 
Don Baer said:
Jay I didn't watch the vidio due to packing things up prior to my move the speakers are not hooked up, but I have been watching the thread. I have mixed feeling on a post like this or your original post. This is a wood working forum and we as members are building something that we can use as a tool to help us as well as help others in the craft that we all love. We have on one hand said in our COC that political and religious post are verboten yet we allow posters to say that we will pray for someone who is distressed or lost a loved one. I guess it's a fine line we tread. Tough call and hard to set some firm guide lines. For instance if someone says they are dead set against a political candidate then thats political however if I quote a politician is it political is that not ? For instance I believe Sir Winston Churchill said " If we fail to study history then history is bound to repaete itself." Now is that political becuaser I quoted a politician.

:huh: :dunno:
Click to expand...


Don

Well, as long as you're not quoting Howard Stern I guess it wouldn't be a violation of the CoC
:D

And as far as someone asking for prayers, I put that in the "I need help" category, and all of us are here to help each other, in what ever way we can.

But if someone says, something more pointed about a religious topic then I think we are crossing the line.

I know, I know, it is muddy. But like Ian said, if we don't try to stay in compliance with the CoC, then we're going to be in a quagmire down the road. Frankly, I think that is what happened at SMC, certain people seemed to be able to do anything they wanted, while others......... well, let's just say, to paraphrase a prominent figure, we don't want to repeat history.

However, the fact that it was an external link is, to me, doesn't make any difference. The content of the link is the important thing, it expresses a point of view and someone who posts the link is making a statement just as directly as if he/she wrote a post. For example,-- what if I posted a link of Hillary singing the national anthem saying that I thought it was funny -- is that political? (I don't know if one actually exists, I think it does and as I recall, she can't carry a tune in a bucket).

Time for bed here on the east coast, I'll let you west coast guys figure it out.

See you in the morning.

Jay
 
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Don Baer said:
We have on one hand said in our COC that political and religious post are verboten yet we allow posters to say that we will pray for someone who is distressed or lost a loved one. I guess it's a fine line we tread. Tough call and hard to set some firm guide lines.
Click to expand...

The CoC is a very firm guidline as written. I personally would not take anyone to task over offering or requesting a prayer. Someone could make a case for removing posts like that and it would be tough to argue based on the CoC.

Some joker proposed an alternative wording for that part of the CoC which would offer more flexibility. That sank without a trace.

Don Baer said:
For instance if someone says they are dead set against a political candidate then thats political however if I quote a politician is it political is that not ? For instance I believe Sir Winston Churchill said " If we fail to study history then history is bound to repaete itself." Now is that political becuaser I quoted a politician.

:huh: :dunno:
Click to expand...

The difference is time, Don. Churchill's quotation has survived the coming and going of some generations, changes of gov't etc. Compare that quotation with this one: "Stay the course" Which one would you feel less comfortable yelling in a bar at closing time ?
 
Jay Knoll said:
However, the fact that it was an external link is, to me, doesn't make any difference. The content of the link is the important thing, it expresses a point of view and someone who posts the link is making a statement just as directly as if he/she wrote a post. For example,-- what if I posted a link of Hillary singing the national anthem saying that I thought it was funny -- is that political? (I don't know if one actually exists, I think it does and as I recall, she can't carry a tune in a bucket).
Click to expand...

Jay, since you posit the hypothetical situation, I'd say its pretty easy. The link in question was obviously intended to be humorous, most notably by the guy being lampooned. If the hypothetical link and post you suggest featured Hillary making fun of herself (perhaps her lack of tune), obviously humorous, then I'd say it would not violate the COC. If it were just her singing the national anthem with no intended humor, then your statement that its funny could imply a political judgement, if it were construed as ironic, and could violate the COC. If it were funny like William Shatner sing "mr. tambourine man" is funny, then it wouldn't be political.

The COC is complex in its simplicity, but I think previous discussions of it have recognized that interpretation will always be required, and the intent is what is important. This is why requests for prayers are not reported as violations, the intent is clearly not offensive. If we cut the OT forum so sharply as to exclude the recognigtion that politics even exists, must not we also do the same with religion?
 
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For example,-- what if I posted a link of Hillary singing the national anthem saying that I thought it was funny -- is that political? (I don't know if one actually exists, I think it does and as I recall, she can't carry a tune in a bucket).
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I wouldn't think that was political either. If on the other hand the commentary accompaning the post indicated it meant something about her political beliefs or actions, then yeah, I think the post is political, but not the video.

Take care, Mike
 
Ian Gillis said:
...Some joker proposed an alternative wording for that part of the CoC which would offer more flexibility. That sank without a trace...
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We're guilty of not keeping you posted on where that idea went. As I recall, the suggestion was well-received, but we got kind of stuck on how to amend the CoC, and decided that it would be a good task for the elected board to figure out in April.

Everyone has raised valid points here, and should also be congratulated for keeping the discussion civil. And to anyone here who, in the past, has had a post or thread "moderated", please understand that we're all still trying to figure out the best way to drive this bus. We've got the potential to take a few wrong turns here and there. :doh:
 
There have been good comments so far, and as I see it, the CoC doesn't need to be changed. It does seem though that different folks have a difference of opinion about what is or is not Political, Religious, or whatever, so maybe the solution would be to write up definitions listing specific points that could be asked when questioning a post's contents, then if it did not violate ANY of those points, there would be NO problem and visa/versa.

I did not see anything political at all with this post OR with the material in the Link in question and to call it Political IMHO, would be a Real Stretch. I saw it as it was meant to be when originally produced........Humorous.

I know everyone has "some wariness" because of "a previous forum's problems", but when references are made (as have been made from time to time), that "After All this is a Woodworking Forum", then to me that kinda intimates that we should just forget even having an Off Topic section, WHICH I WOULD HATE TO SEE, and I also would hate to see it so tightly constrained that one would hesitate to even visit with other Family Members for fear of Violating the CoC.:(

As has been stated before, If one is ONLY interested in the "Woodworking" aspect of this Forum, then there is nothing mandatory for one to even go to the Off Topic Section, but to me, that section is where "Family" shares time together on other subjects than the "Family Business", including other information requests, humor, sorrow, celebrations, problems and just general conversation, like "after the Chores are all done".

I hope this doesn't come off not sounding right, and is certainly not intended to irritate, agitate, or otherwise disturb anyone, and is not directed in any way toward any individual or their post........Just my rambling thoughts on the subject, for what it's worth.

Cheers to everyone :wave:
 
It seems to me that EVERYTHING that is done in Washington by public figures is political in nature. I don't think for a moment that any part of that performance wasn't planned.

So, yes it was funny, but there still was an underlying objective. Perhaps.......... "Sure, I'm the Pres but I can make fun of myself so I must be an OK guy and we can all get along while ......................" and by passing that link along we continue to further the accomplishment of that objective -- hence it is politics. And in my view, not in compliance with the CoC.

OK, I'll stop here.

And by the way, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a life long Republican who is very dissatisfied with the way that many things are being handled by our "leaders" in DC. They deserve all the criticism they get, starting at the top. I just don't want to deal with it in this forum.

Jay
 
Jay,

Speaking for myself only......I don't think this was political........Bush's intent was to poke fun at himself and at the media.....and at his administration.....He wasn't making a political statement directly or indirectly IMHO.....It was meant to be comedy.......He knew he was walking into the lion's den and yet the lions had a full stomach........the lions weren't hungry or hunting.....and President Bush wasn't making a major decision .......everybody there was away from work...socializing......It's intent was to project humor......and it did.......JMHO....
 
Just for the record, I did not consider the clip to be political - and no one could accuse me of being a fan of Mr Bush. Maybe I am niave, but I don't think that we should assume that everything a political figure does has to be considered political.

However, I agree with the action taken to remove the reference to the clip on the basis that a number of members do consider it to be political.
 
First, lets congratulate ourselves that the discussion stayed respectful and constructive.:thumb:

I really enjoyed the post and gave some thought to whether it was political or not. The fact that Bush was parodying himself tipped the scales for me. If Bush didn't object to it himself, why should I?

Anyhow, my view didn't "win", but that's ok. We had a good discussion. Some people were offended and thats enough said. I can go make some sawdust without smoldering over this issue. How much better than the old place!:thumb:
 
[Sorry all, but even though this post was intended to be light-hearted and non-political, it's become apparent that enough people consider it to be political that it should be treated as such (and therefore against the CoC) and the link to the video removed. Bruce was open-minded enough at the onset to offer it up for deletion, so to prevent further controversy and potentially inconsitent application of the rules, I'm doing just that. My apologies to all who are offended, either by this decision or the post itself. - Vaughn]

Vaughn’s action certainly has my consent. I posted it with the intent of creating a few smiles. I also knew that it could be received by some as a political statement. Personally, I work in the Missile Defense arena, so the Bush administration has been good to me.
Civilization in general seems to have lost its sense of humor sometime back in the `80’s. To me, that is not a good thing.
 
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