a few questions for whoever can answer them

Although Ive run a business since the late 70s, Ive never thought about woodworking and all involved.

It seems my 4 year run at having a shop in my garage might be coming to and end soon. I was angry today all day, but the anger has passed, and now my wife and I are putting our heads together to come up with ideas.

I can use my sons home/garage, but hes 45 minutes away, and he only has around 240 sq feet. Adequate enough for me to finish his builds for now, I can move anything I need to his garage in one load, set up and get busy within 2 hours. I dont want to have to move alot of lumber, and all the secondary machines since I dont use them often. My son said anytime dad, hes a good boy. Advantages of this is that I will have a full kitchen, my own bathroom, a bed to rest in, and always feel at home. This would only be temporary, as I wouldnt want to displace my son out of his storage space in the garage. I just want to finish his table, stools, and help him finish off his basement. Id move on a sunday morning, and be working by sunday afternoon.

now my questions, as it pertains to my second option and the one my wife wants me to follow as well.
Renting space. If I rent space to put 6 machines in, strictly personal use, not commercial, does anyone know if Im still bound by the same fire codes and electrical codes as a professional business?
There will be no one other than me, so I dont need liability insurance, maybe a drop of renters theft insurance.
Are there any rules about setting up a woodworking shop that Im totally not aware off?
Im thinking about finding out about local machine and woodworking shops that could spare an extra loading bay, and rent it to me to help them pay their monthly rent. Id get a small insurance policy to protect me All Id need is 250-300 sq feet, and a throne. I only eat a coffee and roll, so I can make coffee and bring rolls each day.
I do like this idea, although its a bit more convenient stayin out back, but that may not be an option in two weeks. At least I wont have prying eyes and curious neighbors looking down my way anymore.

I checked some local places and I see some 600 sq places for 650-700 bucks a month with loading docks, frieght elevators, private bathrooms, perfect for me.

If I ever needed advice from you guys, please, spit it all out and give me ideas now. There are share/places around me, but I dont want to work on their machines and dont want others using mine.Id prefer my own space.
Any suggestions, please pm me or give it to me hear.
It will be greatly appreciated.

I'm by no means an expert on this, but I'd think the fire and electrical codes would be the same for a commercial or a private shop, regardless of the location. In other words, I think the codes that would apply at a rented shop space would be the same ones you currently have to comply with in your garage shop. The only difference is the code enforcement on a rented commercial space might be more rigidly enforced that a home shop, and it'd be more likely to get the attention of the local inspection agency. But as you've already seen, apparently even your house isn't safe from those guys.

Before my current location in a commercial shop building, I was using mini-storage buildings. I wasn't the only one. One guy had a full blown cabinet making business in 5 or 6 bays adjacent to eachother. The last mini-storage location I had, I was paying $300/mo. total for 2 12X36 bays with high ceilings. Some places are a lot less. No one will know or care that you are running a wood shop in a mini-storage bay except the owner. THEY definitly need to know up front. I have done this several times and was never turned down.

Tony Bilello said:

Before my current location in a commercial shop building, I was using mini-storage buildings. I wasn't the only one. One guy had a full blown cabinet making business in 5 or 6 bays adjacent to eachother. The last mini-storage location I had, I was paying $300/mo. total for 2 12X36 bays with high ceilings. Some places are a lot less. No one will know or care that you are running a wood shop in a mini-storage bay except the owner. THEY definitly need to know up front. I have done this several times and was never turned down.

Click to expand...

How do you get power into those bays? I thought all they came with are a couple of lights.

Will the power company run a line to one or more bays. I'm sure the owner would not let you tap into their power.

Mike

Allen, I would try to talk to them. I would explain that you are just a little OCD about your shop and include the thing about your health and just trying to get in as much as you can while you can. Sometimes that is all it it takes. If it worked you would save yourself the trouble of finding another place, the moving and the money. If it didn't work, well, then you didn't lose anything that you weren't going to lose anyway. Of course I don't know the specifics but I have always been one to buck heads. I have a hard head so it doesn't hurt much.
Sure sounds like a bad situation and I don't don't envy you right now. That is why I moved to the mountains, so I didn't have to shoot any of my neighbors or fight with any inspectors. We have one main one that does the inspections up here.

Allen, I agree with Mark, wait until Monday and then go and go through the process to let these idiots know that you are a hociest and have no intention of doing commercial work.

I tried to explain things.
Seems they arent going to believe me no matter what.
1000 bf of lumber assorted by species in storage and things like fire extinquishers hung up on walls, doesnt let them think Im an amateur with alot of stock and safety minded.
They made up their mind. I have stress issues. It totally shut my eyes off today. I can go on with them, and on, and on, it just might not be worth it at this point.
I will have my time with the judge, but Im not sure how hell see things.

I'm wondering who the burden of proof fall on. Do you have to prove you're just a hobbyist or to they have to prove you're pro?

Allen, have you looked for ww cops in your eare? If you could find one it could be worth it. I was going to start one in my last shop befor the bottom fell out. In my area once you rent a place for doing ww they get the fire marshall involed and they want everything up to there standards. Hopefully if you go ths route you can get away with out having to follow all the regulations. If you lived closer I wuld let you come over and use my shop. Good luck with this and I hope everything works out.

Is it the noise that they are concerned about or is it that they think you are running a commercial business out of your garage ?

I would think it would be fairly easy to prove that you are not running a ww business in your garage? What does your lawyer say.?

Sorry to hear this allen, maybe you can convince the judge. Are they just basing this off the assumption that you are operating a business, or is there some type of noise level for your area? There are a lot of noise reduction options from tools to sound proof insulation, etc.

The answer I believe of your questions is specific to your local area. Most laws of the type you are asking about are city, and even specific to zoning. I suspect you won't have to follow any fire codes as an hobby woodworker, but if you are renting a part of a larger building, you might have to follow any laws that the building is required to meet. In my town I'd suggest not asking, but no idea what the penalties could be up there.

That said, some people down here run businesses out of self storage units. It's pretty common for landscapers to have offices and everything inside a large 20x50 storage unit. They're not cheap, but usually cheaper than any other comercial type property. Could be an option to look at.

Allen this is a tough one. As a hobbiest and a good one what seperates you from a good model rail hobbiest with an elaborate shop or an artist? I would think you have a neighbor that has been complaining maybe about the noise. I would not get streessed about it at all it is not worth it. I have a shop in my garage and am a ticketed carpenter, but my shop is my personal hobby ( yes I do it for a living and for fun, and Yes I am one sick puppy ) Who is to say what is a hobby and what is a proffession. If you are not certified your not a pro just a simple hobbiest having fun in his shop? Who is to say otherwise? Just because you have a car in your drive doesn't make you a race car driver or a courier or a pizza delivery driver. Just because you have a pro cook wear and an oven in your house doesn't make you a chef ( though you could be one) Just because you have the tools doesn't make you a pro or running a business. You have a lot of wood in storage because you have lots of projects on the go in the future. If you can meet the fire codes and have insurance what is the issue? I have wood in my shop that is slated for several projects ( if I ever get around to them) who is to say that you are not the same. I know lots of guys that are the same. You just are more fortunate than others that you scored some good deals on wood and have no other place to store it.

Allen, if I am reading between the lines correctly, the visit from the inspector wasn't as random as originally thought.
I would contact a lawyer. They can argue the case utilizing the standards for your benefit (the opposing side will be doing it against you.) In the long run, if you win, the costs of the lawyer will be cheaper than moving and paying rent and driving and worrying about break ins and extra insurance and all involved.

The inspection. I think it sounds like it was done under fradulent circumstances. Did he ever say he was acting on a complaint?

1,000 bdft of wood. If is rough cut, a year per inch before it is dried down correctly. Explain it is wood of different age and only so much is available per year and it is due to the hobby and the wood's patterns that you use this versus kiln dried wood.

Fire extinguishers. You probably have them in your kitchen also. Doesn't mean you are running a cafe.

Neighbor. I would build a fence. Tall fences require permits, but would build a fence and it wouldn't be to keep me in, it would be to keep him out.

Utilize this forum to gather data on the hobbyists and the amount of wood in storage, number of fire extinguishers on premises, objects built.

I would go before the judge with as positive an attitude, as much ammunition, a good lawyer and a mental attitude of staying in my home. Castle doctrine allows for fight to death in the event of fearing for your life. See if you have castle doctrine in your state. Is our mental health not as important as our physical health? If we are being good stewards and not running our planers at midnight, no piles of junk laying around, not burning large piles of cutoffs in the road, what sets us apart from other hobbyists?

Allen, I'm really sorry your having some much grief over your shop.

Totally agree Jonathan, As for the fire extingishers they are just a safety issue nothing more. My wife ( Janet ) works in insurance and the big things with insurance companies and shops is Dc's and fire extinguishers. I have 3 extingushers in my shop alone for safety as well as a good DC and air filter to protect my home and that of my neighbors. That is just good practice. The same goes with the running the machines after 9 pm as there are by laws in regards to that. As Jonathan said the wood air dries at different times so the wood is for projects when it is dry enough to use. ( good point Jonathan) It does sound like you have a troublesome neighbor though as the inspectors just don't randomly drop by. That info will have to be disclosed in court I would expect.

In terms of how much wood you have in your shop, that is easy to justify based on the number of projects you turn out a month and the cost of lumber, it is cheaper to buy it in quantity. I guarantee other hobbiest wood workers have more. Ask Larry how much he has....lol

Another agreement with Jonathan. As much as I consider lawyers a good topping for a man-made reef of insurance people, I would contact one. A fence indeed would be less in the long run than a separate shop. I am between shop and house so much during a shop session I don't know how I would adjust to a separate structure blocks or miles away.

The law cuts both ways on these things. We held band practice several times a week for years after we won out over a crabby next door neighbor who had to go to extremes to even hear us, let alone be disturbed by us. If a bunch of 20-something long-haired freaky people can win, so can you. I'd look into legal representation; let the sharks take the stress. You just have to pay the bill..

I trust my attorney more than I trust any surgeon that ever stuck a scalpel in me. He has handled everything for me for 30 years, and has put other attornys in their place when they thought they could rattle me.

I dont think its a legal issue. Its code.

Code dictated by the local village. I dont know what summons I will get, but I have a pretty good idea.

After I get the summons, I cant discuss it, Ill have to let my attorney advise me, but I cannot deal with stress well. My eyes went haywire last night and I cant live with that.

My sons garage is available, at least for me to finish up my work I had planned for this summer.
Id rather not dilly dally too much because Id have to clean up the space, get my machines over there, and Im not a patient person.
My sore abdominal muscle was getting a rest right after I finished this table top, so Ill try to sneak in 20 minutes of final planing and jointing, take my chances this week, then rest up a few days.
I appreciate all the advice.
If this was just a broken code issue, like laying cement without a permit, I could take care of it, but ongoing complaints will force the code enforcement to act. While I dont fear them, I also know who not to make my enemies.
I wont move. Mortgage free and retired, I dont need any expenses like a move.
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While having coffee this morning, my wife said, look, you had mentioned and looked into sharing a place before to move your stuff and work outside the house, you said you kinda wanted a real shop, well, maybe this is the time to do it. We dont have to worry about you paying a little rent for your happiness and piece of mind.

And thats where Im at.

btw, I have a fence, they dont permit high fences after the back of the home, it wont deflect noise, but it will be a kicker if I find out it wasnt the NN. Like I said, I closed the overhead door yesterday and turned on 3 machines, dust collector, planer, and TS, (noone cutting ofcourse) and walked down the driveway, and you couldnt hear much.

Hi Allen

I cannot describe how i felt seeing this post when i logged in. You have my total sympathy.

Personally i would go with the fight. After what i have been through with the NN definitely a fight is worth it. Why should you be forced to do what you are contemplating? Where is your liberty.

This kinda reminds me of my Dads situation. He is 94 in a retirement complex. Had his telephone taken away due to move with in the complex to a unit comprising of a single room. Now as he says they want him to sit in a chair and not anything. His mind is as sharp as ever just the body that aint. He just bought a new computer and believe it Office 2010. They cannot handle the fact that he can type a document. So he uses his ability to write to the management and state his case. Has the approval of the telephone company to install a dedicated stand alone dsl line for him like he had before. Bill wont affect the complex and in the event of his death all with be seen to without them being affected. They dont want to let him do it. But he has not given up yet. Stay the course.

When i had the Chief fire inspector come to my place, they were so fascinated by the tools they did not even notice the extinguishers or the smoke alarm. I had to point them out to them. It made me mad in some ways, cause all that was happening was harrassment.

Since the beginning of my own NN/town issues i have long held the view that the tool manufacturers had better start to form a lobby to ensure that the people retain the right to purchase and use their machines or soon they will find their customers dwindling. Its bad enough kids are relegated to video games and texting and that shops have been closed at schools.

I hope your lawyer socks it to them and you dont have to move, especially given your health circumstances.

I mean when you dont feel well after being in your shop you have the option of saying i will go inside and lie down on your own bed at your own convenience with your wife about to care for you.

Why should this way of life be impacted upon. Its not as if you tunneling across the border and smuggling people or drugs.

Hey maybe you got the wrong hobby?

I took an hour and visited some storage facilities. Wow, 2 of them were rocking this morning on a day I figured noone would be there.
They will ship, accept orders, free wifi, but none of them will allow machines to operate, they dont have electrical wiring anyway.
Not for me.
Im not moving Rob.
If I make it for another 8 or 9 years, my wife retires and Im sure Ill move then.
Im not doing anything till I sit down and speak with my attorney, but after this week, I want to complete my current project.
Looks like for now, Im going to have to move most tools and small tools to my sons home.
Before I even go in the garage, Ill sound proof it all a bit, and never work with the overhead open. Its a small one car, but its work space all the same, and there will be no wood storage, and I dont need the drum sander for the next couple of projects. I can mount my mitre on his(my old) ryobi mitre stand, and everything else rolls. 2 trips and Ill have everything I need there to work. Ill have everything my home has ofcourse, bathroom, shower, kitchen, bed, its only the 45 minute trip each way that is a bummer. But for now, I may not have a choice.
I will still look into a space for rent, but not until I go to court and sort it all out.
I slept on it, and IM more disgusted and sick to my stomach today.