Menu
What's new

a few questions for whoever can answer them

Vaughn McMillan said:
I'm wondering who the burden of proof fall on. Do you have to prove you're just a hobbyist or to they have to prove you're pro? :dunno:
Click to expand...

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Can they prove you are in business for profit? That is the key. Downside, it will be a hassle regardless of who is right or wrong.
Some places have no regulations if the home/business/shop is in a rural area outside city or town.
I understand the counter-arguments but that is the way I like it.
 
I can't begin to feel your frustration Allen. Having read your feelings I believe I would finish your son's project at his place while fighting for the right to maintain your hobby at home. It would be nice if your attorney is a woodworker. Good luck!
 
Last edited:
Allen:

I'm sorry all of this is happening to you. I've been to Allen's place and it's a tight neighborhood from a "space between houses" perspective.

In the end how you respond to the situation is up to you and how much stress/energy/money you can devote to the situation.

Where I live there are noise ordinances that state between X AM and Y PM you are allowed to make noise. If you are staying within that time windows I don't understand how they have a leg to stand on "legal wise".

The running a "professional" operation is really the more nebulous charge - define professional! You getting paid by your son for the furniture? I don't think so.

Good luck and keep us in the loop - as best you can legally.

Cheers

Jim Mattheiss
 
well, like a drug dealer, my wife stood guard and I closed the door and did some jointing, waste of time, I cant work like this.
Jim-the noise issue is the same here, between so and so, but if anyone complains about noise, thats another issue, no matter what time of day.

time to go celebrate mothers day, forget this stuff.
 
allen levine said:
well, like a drug dealer, my wife stood guard and I closed the door and did some jointing, waste of time, I cant work like this.
Jim-the noise issue is the same here, between so and so, but if anyone complains about noise, thats another issue, no matter what time of day.

time to go celebrate mothers day, forget this stuff.
Click to expand...

Good choice!
 
I didn't read all the previous post's, but I have a lash...For a civil case, it's a preponderance of the evidence, not reasonable doubt as in criminal. Laws very per state and you should have a Legal consult service in your area that will give you 30 min of free or very discounted advise.
Commercial codes are to a higher standards than residential. Just a use and abuse factor. Also, the commercial space, whether used for personal or for profit use, must be built to handle a variety of uses...Auto shop, retail space, storage, and so on. As an example, fire sprinklers are required in commercial, but not residential...like a home. Again, Allen codes very not only per state, but per county and city too! You should be able to walk in to Code Enforcement or the permit dept in your city and grab what you need to prove your case. But!!! look up the "Legal Aid Society" in your white/yellow pages and get some cheap or free help and kick some butt while your at it!
make sure to have pictures, maybe a tax return showing you generated no income, a "good neighbor" statement saying something good. Get something from the fire dept say you are on top of things having an extinguisher in your area. Make them the bad guy.
 
Last edited:
Allen, Sorry you are dealing with such stress. If you ever move out Michigan way I'm sure I can drum up help to set up a good shop. Around my parts there is cow and tractor noise 24/7 and occasionally a cow runs through the yard. I can work in my shop at any time of day or night with no complaints. We have good sources for lumber at good prices. I keep a small fridge going in the shop with a few beers or pops for the visitors that stop by. There are lots of good people doing wood working around and most of the ones I know are very generous with their time and materials or tools should the need arise.

I've heard stories about some of the repressive ordinances out East and I am amazed. We still enjoy some freedom out here.

Sounds like a tough problem you are facing. Wish I could help you solve it but, I don't have any expertise to offer. Just a plug to come on out the mid-west, we'll try to make you feel at home.
 
Moving to a rural area would be no problem for me, but I cant expect my wife to give up her career. Shes worked hard to get where she is.

My entire family was here today, and my son is going to install a set of attic stairs sooner than later so he can empty out his garage sooner that later.
My family(children, bil, sil, nieces, nephews, gfs and bfs of nieces and nephews, and I know some of my wifes coworkers would be here if I asked) are all ready to move me into my sons garage, rent a truck, take it all over in one day and be done. I drew out the plan already, as backup.I would only have to install a few shelves to be in working order.
His home is very secure, just wish he bought one with a 2 car garage.(its better than no options)
Its a 10x19 foot area, so there will be very little wood storage, and machines like the drum sander, drill press, lathe, grinder, wont need to be there.I will open every drawer I have here now, and decide what is needed daily, what is not.
I spend 90 % of my woodworking with the ts, mitresaw, jointer and planer. I rarely use the bandsaw, and the router is on the ts. I would take the bandsaw also, just in case I need it. I probably would do all my final assemblies at home.
Sub assemblies would most likely be done there, so I might have to purchase a few more clamps. He has my old mitre and stand, and a bunch of cordless drills/drivers, saws etc, but I would take all mine there for the time being.
With my door closed, you really cant hear any of those machines outside. Besides, I dont use them only on certain projects, and only the drum sander is heavy.Im sure it wont be convenient, but I wont have to pay rent, and worry about other problems, so this is my best option right now if things dont work out here.I always plan things out way in advance. I didnt plan this to happen, but now I have to come up with options. I would also transport enough wood for the next 2 projects, and take whatever I feel is necessary as I go along.
After I finish the table, I was going to tackle 4 stools, then work on my home, so its not a ton of woodworking I have planned this year.
He lives in a much more wide open area, and I would never open his overhead door to advertise what Im doing.
I learned that lesson.
Ill wait and see how things go. Until then, I have cleanup, tuneups, personal errands, personal business, house stuff, should keep me busy for a while.
Id rather be woodworking, but my hands are tied.
 
Last edited:
I just want to say how sorry I am to hear of your troubles. I guess I don't understand quite what the problem is, but I guess it's that there have complaints of noise, even during daytime hours?

Does your atty think you can fight this and win?

In the mean time, it sounds like moving your tools to your son's place is the best option. It's just so nice being able to walk across your property to your own shop, I feel so badly for you. I understand how much woodworking means to you, and to have some outsider step in and dictate to you is just plain wrong.

What are the next legal steps you can take?
 
Keep your eyes on the prize Allen, woodworking from home!!!!!!!
We are all pulling for you. Any way, shape or form we can help, you holler!!
This indirectly affects all of us. Lean against the wall, first one foot then the other, do back kicks to the wall. When someone asks what you are doing, tell 'em, getting ready to kick butt!!!!! :thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
Allen,

I've been following this but not posting for fear of doing a little 'over emphasizing, or skirting the Coc. This really aggravates me more than I can say. Government is supposed to be our servant. I have no great love for most of the press either, but I think getting hold of a local paper, or better yet , TV, and getting your story public will help you make your case. Here's the headline, "Local man with only a few years left to enjoy hobby shut down by oppressive bureaucracy".

I wish you success in whatever solution you choose. My heart goes out to you and, Like Johnathan said, this effects all of us. The same could happen to any of us.
 
Last edited:
everyone Ive spoken too about this issue, friends, neighbors, my electrician, are sick about it. It was funny when one of my wifes friends husbands, said it makes him want to puke(same thing I said)

Im a big boy. The problem for me now is I cant deal with this stress.
I dont have the fight left in me. Im not 100% healthy, and this crap has took a terrible toll on me in only 4-5 days.

I spoke with the electrician just now, no problem wiring my sons garage, but he warned me about the same problems over there, but Id take my chances.
different setup, noone is that close, and his neigbhors work during the day.

I went around just out of curiosity this morning, spoke to people who know people, and asked about finding space.
I got one possible hit, I have to call him back at 8 or 9 pm tonight.
A 3 car garage that is all hooked up with electricity and lighting, it was rented out as engine supply something, and another business, I think he said farm equipment? Here? There are no farms. Maybe I misunderstood him.
Anyway, last time he heard it was vacant and the owner, his buddy, wants a tenant.
Im looking into every option right now.

I understand we all have our problems with town issues, but I wouldnt wish this stress on anyone.

btw, my friend just spent 4 court sessions getting something approved the local town wouldnt do at first.
Same town court, and he told me they do not reveal who filed a complaint, so Ill never know if there was in fact one or if the inspector just doesnt want me to have a shop.
 
Last edited:
Rennie Heuer said:
Allen,

"Local man with only a few years left to enjoy hobby shut down by oppressive bureaucracy".
Click to expand...

nah, if I went into remission, Id be accused of being a liar.

I wont make this a issue outside of my local court.

I bring it up here because I think a few here understand how totally frustrating it is to love something so much and have it taken away for such ridiculous reasons.

Its more likely youd see me on Jail, the guy who ran his tablesaw too much and ended up in state prison.
 
I am not a lawyer, but thought that a basic premise was we got to meet our accuser. :huh:
A lot of this nonsense is from the same personality type I see at school in the parking lot. They don't have enough gumption to earn the money for their own car or are to lazy to work on their own car so they "key/scratch" the nice cars in the parking lot. The mentality of being jealous. If the people had to put up the money for the frivolous lawsuit and then the loser had to pay the expenses, a lot more attention to detail would be done by folks as well as the goofballs would quit abusing the system. Sorry Allen, don't mean to keep stirring. This ticks me off.
 
Last edited:
I got up and went outside to do some cleaning up, thinking about running something with the door closed,(afterall, Im not selling dope), and my attorney called.
Dont do anything, just send him the summons, hes going to get in touch with the towns attorney and he will get the original complaint.
He went on with legal mumbo jumbo about sound ordinances and measuring decimals, but he said to leave it up to him for now.
I also explained about shutting the overhead door, no problem for me, so Ill wait now and see. Maybe I wont run the planer, just so close to finishing that table.
 
That's it Allen let the lawyer do the stuff they are good at and leave you will less stress and be thinking of the things that you are good at. :thumb::thumb: No worries spewing off here as I think it is quite clear that we are all here for you.
 
I felt a complete wave of calmness wash over my body after I hung up with the attorney.
He always sounds so calm. first thing he always says to me, is hey, take a breath, calm down.

so I went outside and call me Dillinger, I cut down the table top I messed up, replaned and jointed it, and starting glueing it up again.

ok, you people dont understand how comforting it is to know I can blow this load off here and at least someone reads this nonsense. I dont know if I can talk about the legal stuff once he gets on it, but I will shut up now and let everyone know in a week or so how things are going. I am still drawing out all my options as far as moving the shop.

I got the table top done enough so that I can work on sanding and finishing off the table to go with the bar.
Between apply finish and taking apart and cleaning up everything, I think Im pretty much set for woodworking this week.
I actually have to run into the big apple either tomorrow or weds to clear up another mess, promised the wife Ill do the windows, and clean out the mess in my office. I can promise at least Ill work on the table this week.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top