Chairs........ Mission Accomplished!

Stuart Ablett

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Tokyo Japan
OK first off, there are going to be some questions, then hopefully some pictures and some more stuff.

I was contacted by a fellow foreigner here in Japan that a world famous circus that have shows here in Tokyo need some woodworking done, he would have been happy to do the work, but lives quite far from Tokyo, so he introduced me to this company. You all know the company, but I would really appreciate it if you do NOT mention their name. I do not wish to harm any relationship I am building with them, they have not told me that I cannot discuss the work I'm doing for them, so I think it is OK, but I'd rather avoid the problem, so please just nod and say "OK, I know who you are talking about" but don't mention them by name, so search engines can find this thread. Sounds silly but trust me :D

They have an act that uses chairs, stacked on each other, >> LINK << their current chairs are reaching the end of their useable life. They had new chairs built, but they need some work, some tweaking at best, partial rebuild or out right junking at worst. The new chairs are built from Linden wood, also called Lime and Basswood, not exactly the first wood I'd choose to make chairs from :eek:

Some questions, for checking these chairs and figuring out if they are salvageable they want to know a price. I have trouble pricing my work, as I do mostly stuff in house, not for hire. I'm thinking of saying $30 an hour and at least 10 hours to partially tear one apart and fix it.

So does this sound too low?

Too high?

I am not a pro, but I know I can do this work, true the video makes me worry about my work, but I know I can do this work.

What do you pros charge for bespoke work?

I don't want to price myself out of a job here, these guys could be worth a lot of work from time to time if I get in with them, they have all kinds of issues dealing with the locals, cultural and language for starters.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling, I'm at the L shop being constantly interrupted while I write this :D

Thoughts?

cheers!
 
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in this case stu i think you need to look at liability as well.. check with a local on there pricing for doing a normal chair.. this company is bigger than your liquor shop and wont hesitate to get reconciliation if there start falters because of a faulty chair in there eyes. the normal rate in that country for that type of work is where yu need to start then add in the extras..
 
in this case stu i think you need to look at liability as well.. check with a local on there pricing for doing a normal chair.. this company is bigger than your liquor shop and wont hesitate to get reconciliation if there start falters because of a faulty chair in there eyes. the normal rate in that country for that type of work is where yu need to start then add in the extras..

All great point Larry, thank you!

You are certainly correct about the liability we already had that conversation, there will be paper work saying that once I hand the chairs off to them, and they are inspected and accepted by them as OK, I'm no longer liable, as they do modify the chairs on almost a daily basis, with shims and other stuff, to suit their needs.

For Bespoke work like this, the going rate would be $100 an hour easy, if they can find someone to do the work, which they have not been able to do. I do not wish to be greedy, I want a long term profitable relationship for both sides. I think I have a lot of talents that they could certainly use for fabrication and thinking outside the box, something the locals are not very good at, not to mention my communication skills..... in English! :D

Cheers!
 
If the going rate for the craftsman in the area is 100. Than charge 100 Nothing worse than a home hobbyist cutting the price on the guys trying to feed there families.
 
If the going rate for the craftsman in the area is 100. Than charge 100 Nothing worse than a home hobbyist cutting the price on the guys trying to feed there families.

I agree, but the pros here have been contacted and no one wants to deal with them funny talking foreigners..... it is NOT like I'm taking work away from the pros, they don't want the work. :rolleyes:
 
For walk in work, (such as the local Woodcraft sending people over who "just want a cut or two that turns out to take an hour), I charge $1 per minute, including time required for whatever billing they want. Yes that comes to $60 per hour, but it is "interrupt" time, not always done when I would schedule the work. When someone walks in, I point to the shop clock, and say "I take the starting time as (a few minutes past what the clock says), and they agree. When I am done, we look at the clock again, and they say "an hour and 15 minutes for just those few cuts?" and I say, "That's what I see." And then I have to add sales tax.

I estimate my projects at $50 per shop hour, but as an old retired guy, I don't always work hard, and am interrupted by such things as doing the laundry and playing on the internet, so the actual time is perhaps twice what it would have to be. Do I count that as $25 per hour? Or is it $50 per hard working hour?

Shop time in either case includes any machine, glue, sandpaper, and such consumables, but no materials - wood and hardware and anything unique to the project. Since I offer a fixed price before I buy the wood, I use the board foot price from the lumber yard, and estimate waste - depending on species, usable percentage may only be 50%. If there is a lot of shopping time for materials that is part of the design estimate - at least $200 for most projects. And if the customer wants to buy the veneer or other material, fine, but anything coming into the shop that isn't in the final project remains mine - I don't want to get into the game about did I do a good job using and preserving "scrap."

I have noticed that things in Tokyo tend to be a little more expensive :rolleyes:, from the cost of your shop space to tools and materials. Therefore I wouldn't hesitate to charge more than I do.

You might want to set what you consider a modest rate "for the first project" and then adjust the rate based on whether you consider it profitable, and how much you want to do more. They should understand that you don't have an established shop rate - so are willing to try one project at ¥xxx per hour, with the understanding that both parties can renegotiate before any subsequent project.
 
You may not be a "Pro" wood worker Stu, but I don't think anyone could ever question the quality of your work. Just because you haven't done the paying jobs like the pro's doesn't mean your work doesn't stand on an equal footing.

Don't discount your price just because you haven't charged before. :thumb:
 
I don't think it's a bad idea to do the first few projects at a lower rate, then raise your price as time goes by. That way, you can find the market price for your work. When people start walking away, you know you're at the market or a bit above it.

Mike
 
Lot of food for thought Stu. Couple of expansions on them...
Liability is fleating at best. In California, you're required to sign a waiver for everything on the planet...but Calif law prevents an individual from waiving their rights:huh::doh:
Chuck has a great thought on pricing...
Start at $75 for the first 5-8 and then bump it up so that if you decide at some time in the future you want out, the guys that passed it up aren't getting their sake from another shop because you undercut them to the quick. I put myself thru Respiratory school as a handyman and I charged $25/hr for stuff like hanging a door or changing fixtures. Later, I created flat rate pricing lower than the BORG but still inline with what the other little guys were charging. You are a pro whether you like it or not;):thumb:.
You may also want to get "jig happy" to maximize your time and minimize effort so your other projects/hobbies dont suffer...to much!
 
Ok, I love these types of questions. Here is why.

You guys are all stuck in the past....sorry but your age is showing;):). The old days of this is my labor price and this is the material and therefore this is my cost and this is my selling price etc. Fooey.
Time to get to the real world.

Real world is about value.

I will get back to the value issue is a second.

But first lets look at what you saying to yourself.
You are in a discussion with yourself (any us) where you are negotiating with yourself to beat yourself down to a price you think with your outlook, were you in their shoes what would you pay.

You are already broaching the aspect of future work yet have no track record with them or them with you. So now in anticipation of the carrot you kill your own deal. Why? You are focused on cost not value.
I trully believe this is the huge issue with many of the self employed or small businesses out there.

Bear with me you will see what i am about here.

Lets look at a chair.

Say Mrs or Mr. X wants to buy 4 chairs. These chairs will reside in the kitchen and get daily use. They are not into showing these chairs off they want a functional usable chair. They would like it to last and they would like it to be made of natural material, easy to keep clean with a wipe down should something be spilt on them.

Next lets look at Mr and Mrs London Hyde Park the Jones. They have dinner parties, the chairs are to be used in their dinning room which is modeled on 18th century furniture. They have a cook and a butler and so to them what their guests think and feel when they walk in the room and see these new chairs they are looking to purchase, is paramount.

I have deliberately created two obviously different far apart examples to demonstrate the point of value.

The value to the one party is as a piece to sit on. The value to the other has nothing to do with the functionality but everything to do with the objects presence and form finish appearance.

So would you price the two sets of chairs the same even if the clienst both wanted them out of say oak or hard maple or whatever wood.

Here you can remove the raw material if they are the same. but even then not quiet because what you can get away with in Mr and Mrs X's case is not what will fly in Mr. and Mrs. Hyde park.
Selling price is about what the buyer is prepared to pay for the value they seek.
You cannot offer a price without a half decent discussion and thorough understanding of the clients needs. Not the need for a chair, the real need. The need behind the chair.

So lets have a look at your prospective clients needs(note prospective you aint got the deal yet).

Again we aint gonna get into their name guys. So lets remember this very important point Stu is making.

To say the least, these chairs which i will call objects from now on, are critical to the success of their act.

Forget the fear factor of liability or get out of business. Deal with this issue properly and legally because whether you charge 10cents or $1000 dollars you gonna have the same problem so you either want to deal or not. Business is about risk and return. Cannot take the heat get out the kitchen. Good management mitigates risk.

So the objects are mission critical to these people.
The objects are used possibly multiple times per day. (dont forget practice sessions never mind shows).

This is a tool of the trade. Milwaukee versus Ryobi. No comparison.

So these are not chairs for Mr and Mrs X with a very narrow defined budget and they are not for Mr and Mrs Hyde Park with blank cheque book but completely different needs.

These are like buying a machine to a business. They are capital goods. They are expected to work and work hard for long hours and a long time before we need to replace them. Maintenance yes just like a machine i would buy if i were running a factory of some sort.

Next these objects are not going to be life and death. If you look at the movie their is safety harness strapped to the guy.

But these objects need to perform to the requirement. In my observation, precision and durability of material, build, and design are all critical here.
No material with possible checks that under pressure and load will split or shatter. No joints that unless wanted (hey i cannot see what they got now and the detail of give or leeway ) that are flexible or maybe the exact opposite they do want some flex. :dunno:
These objects most importantly are critical to the brand, the entity has built with this act. If they fail in anyway, it affects the image of the performance.

People are paying for the intrigue, excitement and spectacle of the maginificence of the show and its success not a nightly object failure.
This sets these objects apart from anything available. Hence they need to be special order. These guys should be laying down a spec of their needs. BUt they are artists not project managers or contract managers. They need these items to be precision made (precision need not mean tight tolerance but conformance to all their needs). These are custom made objects not something which under normal circumstances would be jigged and produced in a quantity of greater than what Mr and Mrs X are looking for. Certainly not built by a craftsman with an artistic bent such as Mr and Mrs Hyde Park would be looking for.

You need to go into a negotiation here first. Not throw out a price. Go see the show, then meet with them, discuss the intricacies of what they need the object to do. When doing this reinforce the need of the object if it is to fulfill their specific requirement. This indirectly formulates a spec in their mind and helps them see you realize and understand what is expected.
The value of your work in creating the objects now will get away from the objects and cost. It becomes the value of you satisfying their need and you demonstrating that you understand the issues involved in making such objects and your ability to meet their need.
Done correctly they get to the point where in their mind no other person can satisfy their need. Even if they get better quotes. Why.

Each other person bidding is at the level of "here is the cost and i can make an object level". You need to rise above that in your demonstration of value to them and will have when you do this.

A deal and a relationship with them, if that is what you want, is about being able to meet their need on an ongoing basis. About understanding their goal, not yours, and helping them achieve it.

Take Rennies Kitchen remodel. You may ask what the heck has that to do with this thread.
I say lots. Rennie demonstrated he had a need and was of a particular nature and specific goal in mind when he bought his counter top.
The guys that drilled those holes completely never got it. They just drill holes. The value proposition to Rennie was to get the holes in the correct place. You need to be able to identify these requirements in the client before you commit to a job. This is where the value lies.

This is not i need 4 beers how much.
Its a question of what kind of beer drinker are you. How much do you like beer. What are your tastes like. Then you making a pick to match the beer to the client. A value add.
When you get the process right (its a selling process and method) then price is not even on the table. You insult and degrade the deal when the first thing you put on the table is price. And, being submissive and timid in pricing thinking this is going to get you a long term relationship is only going to loose you the deal. You need to take the responsibility.

Why? because every reaction i have seen here is looking at saying i will fall back on what a deal i gave them from a cost point of view, when things go wrong. "It wont be my fault look how little you paid"

You need to demonstrate that you can and will take the responsibility to meet their need. You can and will take the time to understand their need and translate that need into producing an object that fulfills their need.

Vaughn now works with/for a guy that hangs pictures for the wealthy. What is their need. The hardware involved is pennies but the need is that the art piece is mounted properly, safely and in a manner befitting the environment its in and in a secure manner. Then the bill charged has nothing to do with Vaugnn and his bosses cost or the hard ware cost. Its the price of happiness and piece of mind.

When you semi pros and pros get away from the way you were brought up in the trade and your own sense of value, (you are not buying or paying for these things) and get in touch with the value proposition to the client, if and when you demonstrate such value proposition by being able to demonstrate you are the absolutely correct person to meet their needs then you will make money for your labor. (period).
 
Part 2

You need to be able to understand their needs for these objects such that you can offer advice to enhance or improve the objects to further meet their need, you need to be striving to be their advisor in regards to these objects.

If your focus is on risk avoidance and liability you will never achieve this status and your relationship will be transactional. One off.

Chuck proved to a client his value when he did those shutters. All the stripping etc. He took it on and Kudos to him in the way he stuck with it. I do not know if he made money on it, it was about meeting the need and understanding the clients needs. Many of us from our value point of view felt better to simply remake them. Chuck understood that and I dont think any of us here would question his ability to remake them and way more cost effective. But he demonstrated his ability to understand its what the client wants and their need. Way to go Chuck. If you did not do this by design then know that your intuition is perfect Chuck.:thumb:


In addition. There is probably more than one buyer when it comes to these objects. Note even in Mr and Mrs Hyde park their is more than one buyer. (some are not even in Mr And Mrs Hyde Parks household).

You need to find out who is involved here. You need to identify and discuss this with each person involved in the buying loop. If you think these objects are just objects you are making the biggest mistake possible in the sales process. If you want a relationship, do what i note you have done since i first joined this forum. Invest time in it and do the homework and research on the client. Oh boy i could write you a book on how you have done some amazing things absolutely right. You just need to recognize how they fit into the sales process so you can ensure you do them deliberately as a matter of procedure.
The key here is to recognise there are probably 100 000 people in your area that can supply these objects and work wood. My guess is you would probably say and Rob many better than me. Some will be revered woodworkers. How do you stand out?

The key is to open dialogue. Begin with establishing rapport with the client. You were not their first choice. You are being offered to them as a solution by a guy that they initially chose. Start by examining why they chose him. What they percieved about him. It can be very simply a matter of a relationship where that prior relationship allowed for trust.
Here you are worrying about what to charge as if price is going to be first on their list. When you have not yet established credibility on your part with them other than the meaning in the referal from your friend.

In this dialogue establish what their concerns are, what their fears are, what has gone wrong with suppliers in the past. This is not their first set of these objects and i am sure you are not their first supplier. If the prior suppliers had been succesful in this you would not be getting the chance and they would have returned to that person. Bear this in mind if you wish to have a long term relationship with them.
THis is not handy man work. If they are looking for a handy man walk away you never gonna make money. Make it clear that you recognise that when you discuss their needs with them.
You need to cultivate the relationship to the point where they are asking you to solve their problem. Then you can go about a pitch on the object and how you will do this and that to mitigate their concerns and how you will take care to do xyz or whatever elese is of importance to them.

In the deal delivery may be important, color of wood may be important all sorts of things even finish, payment terms, even a degree of intelectual property rights such as how the objects need to be to perform properly in their role. You need to come across as professional.
Then you will get any price within reason.
Now their is nothing wrong with asking if this is a budgeted item or unplanned expense (something gone wrong). If it is budgeted can they let you know what ball park their budget is in.

Then when you know their requirements qualify them all. Write up a specification. Go see them go through it with them. This process demonstrates professionalism it also confirms to them you are committed in meeting their needs and you will go to great lengths to ensure the output you produce meets their needs.

Then when you are through this whole process comes the price. Make sure you have determined what the payment terms are going to be. Make sure to cover yourself here. You have no idea unless you can establish it just what financial state they are in.

Then use your intuition. During meeting with them look at where they choose to meet you. Consider what it tells you about their value for money. These are clues to how they value things. The more you get in touch with this intuition and observation the better you will be at getting a decent price.

Decent price to me has nothing to do with cost but everything to do with a long term relationship and a healthy gross margin something in the region of 60 to 70%. Note i said gross margin. Not markup. But that is another issue all together.

I could write a book but i will stop here. If you want more let me know. But please get away from $30 per hour you devalue your entire being bringing yourself down to levels like this. You are not labor. You are a businessman offering to solve a problem by producing an object of value to the buyer. ;)

Best of luck.
 
.....their current chairs are reaching the end of their usable life. They had new chairs built, but they need some work, some tweaking at best, partial rebuild or out-right junking at worst. .....for checking these chairs and figuring out if they are salvageable they want to know a price. ....

Rob, your ideas are good points, but sometimes a customer just wants a service, not a product. Like, "why do these replacement chairs feel insecure."

We all know Stuart is working on fitness and weight loss... maybe he aspires to be the understudy using these "things" roughly shaped like chairs :D.
 
Good joke Charlie but my points apply even more so to a service being provided than a product.

Small business owners fail to monitor the cost of customer acquisition.

Each customer you have you invest in them despite what you think with your hourly rate. What you want is that over time the amount that you invested with them gets amortised over more work. For that to happen the relationship needs to cease to be transactional.

When you look at a deal in a transactional manner you prevent yourself from investing sufficient time into the necessary effort to make it a long term relationship.

Stu mentioned the desire and possibility that he perceives there to be more work with them should this initial opportunity go off well.

In my view this is the case with every customer. Price is only one element to the equation and just because we may be frugal woodworkers dont mean its the only.

In fact i have noticed that many of us value other elements of the deal to the extent that even when the price is significantly different those other elements sway the deal to a more expensive supplier. That also indicates a more astute buyer in my view and one I would rather have as a customer than the tire kicking bargain basement shopper like myself.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Small business fails to invest in adequate marketing spend because they dont see the return and dont value what it can do. This will persist until they change the way they do business and have a real proposition to offer a client to justify them returning. If they can articulate what this is then they would secure way more business from the same source and find the amortization of marketing costs to be peanuts.
 
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