Electrical help needed!!!

Bill Lantry

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Hey, folks,

So here's the thing. Doorlink's redoing a bathroom. Part of that means rewiring a switch (two, actually, in one box). No big deal. But nothing is ever simple in this house.

switch 009.jpg

Big deal, you say. Looks normal. All I need to do is take out the switch that controls the light, and put in a new switch with a motion sensor. That switch is on the left.

Then take out the switch that controls the fan, and put in a new GFCI outlet, with switch included. That one's on the right.

Or reverse the two, depending on where the 12/2 w/g comes out of the back of the box. No problem. Only, look at this:


switch 010.jpg

It's that red wire that bugs me. The only time I've shocked myself in this house involved a red wire, done by the same guy.

switch 011.jpg

Any recommendations? I can't figure out why he wired it like this, but he must have had his reasons.

Help!

Thanks,

Bill
 
Big guess here, but the red wire takes the power to the fixture. Pull the light and see if it has a red wire. If so, it is incoming power.

Really hard doing and making judgements with pictures. If you can kill the power, just kill it and replace the switch. (you probably already knew that)

Is all that switch controls a light fixture? He may have used the light box as a junction box, but that doesn't explain the white wire coming. I can't figure out what he did. Oh, stay away from the push in switches and plug-ins. Always use ones with screws.
 
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red wires normally are used in three way switches bill and can be hot like a black wire.. what happens is one switch transfers the juice threw the red wire and the other on the black side .. look up 3way swicthes wiring diagram and you will see what i am trying to say:) not an electrician..
 
Are the light and the fan all one unit? If so, the red wire might be to identify which is which - red to one and black to the other...

As Larry has already said, red wires are sometimes used as travelers in a three-way switch setup, but that doesn't appear to be your setup.

FWIW, red/black/white cabling is also used for 240V~ circuits, with red and black being the "hots" and white the neutral. That's not likely your situation either, though.
 
Light and fan are separate. I disconnected everything, to test. Thought I had it figured out, but now one fixture in the kitchen doesn't work. Blows my theory that this box was the terminal connection...

weird: red wire brings power in!
 
ok, so:

As far as I can tell, wire one comes from the panel, and enters the box. It's the only one powered. It has a black, a white, a red, and a ground.

Wire two goes from the box to the light. It has a black, a white, and a ground.

Wire three goes from the box to the fan. It has a black, a white, and a ground.

I've proved this, because this configuration works:

switch1 001 (780 x 520).jpg

As you can see, the black lead from wire one is connected to the fan switch, which works.

The red lead from wire one is connected to the light switch, which works.

Bizarrely, in this configuration, the kitchen fixture is not powered.

OK, take two:


switch1 002 (780 x 520).jpg

In this one, I ran a (black) connecting wire between the power for the light, and the power for the fan. In other words, connected the two connections.

In this configuration, the fan works. The kitchen fixture works. The light is not powered.

Ideas? I'm likely just being dumb! ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
The red is the Constant hot? I am going to back off from this. Distance is too great and I don't want to offer anymore, what could be bad ideas. If you was next door I would feel better.
 
It's bizarre. I have figured out a work around, one that works, but I can't imagine what the wires look like behind the wall in that case. Besides, it's a shallow new work box from the fifties, which just held regular switches. I need a deeper box for a GFCI and a motion sensor, so I've resolved to open up the wall, get a good handle on the wires, and install a new old work box.

Also, I discovered a faulty ground in the vanity light, so I guess it's good I'm going through this.

More questions tomorrow, but they should be easier... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Looks to me like the switch on the right wouldn't work if the one on the left was turned off...is this correct?

If so, I'd say that they fed the circuit from the light bringing the white and red down for feeding other circuits, then back fed from the switch to turn on the bulb(s) using the black wire.
 
I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned it, but you really ought to replace those "back-stab" switches with ones that have screw-post connections.

The back-stab (only) switches and receptacles have had some significant problems over the years.

The newer ones have a screw that tightens the connection after the wire is 'stabbed' in.
 
I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned it, but you really ought to replace those "back-stab" switches with ones that have screw-post connections.

The back-stab (only) switches and receptacles have had some significant problems over the years.

The newer ones have a screw that tightens the connection after the wire is 'stabbed' in.


The resident "New Electrician" did Jim way back at the top.

I agree good advise to get rid of the switches.

Bill i would do as you doing open it up and get to the bottom of whats behind it.

Be prepared for hidden all sorts. Thats what Holmes finds when something like this comes up and dont make apparent sense.

This could snowball on you.:(
 
Hey Bill, I thought you said Doorlink was doing the remodel??? Are you just the hired electrician???? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

There are some crazy ways to wire switches, and that looks like a new one to me. Normally, the wire set (hot, neutral and ground) from the breaker box goes to the light with the neutral and ground being hooked up there, and the ground with a loop for the hot wire running to the switch and back to the light. The only other alternate I've seen, and used at one spot in my shop to save wire, is the wire set goes to the switch box first and the black is cut and the switch hooked up inline so that it makes or breaks the hot circuit. The red wire in your set up is strange. Not likely there was ever a 3 way circuit in bathroom unless it was a BIG bathroom!!!! Is there a red wire at the light or the fan? If so, maybe they used a 3 wire with ground so they only had to run one cable to the light fixture, and both black and red are hooked together somewhere at one of those fixtures?? Might be time to find an electrician and get some help. Jim.
 
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