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SOMETHING FOR ALL MEMBERS and GUESTS

All these posts are starting to sound the same. Maybe we can simplify this. Lets take a poll....should we allow someone to be able to ask for prayers in this forum within the off topic section.

I vote yes.

Who's next!
 
Ken Fitzgerald said:
Conversley Mike,

1. You are assuming most members are religious ...

2. You are suggesting that a minority of members may be offended and thus you want to impose the will of the minority upon the majority or just throw out the rules........or simply....my way or no way.......

Your assumed majority has already conceded to not allow discussions of religion with the exception of those who in time of personal distress and/or grief ask for support in the form prayers.

Bluntly, while this website has tried to operate in a very democratic way, it's not a government but rather a group of friends or "family members" if you will, that came together to discuss woodworking, related topics and enjoy some friendship.

No one is forced to come here. Everyone is supposed to read and abide by the COCs.

If you don't like the COCs or feel you can't abide by them, 1) don't join in the first place or 2) don't continue to return and submit yourself to what you consider offensive threads 3) don't open the threads you feel might be offensive.

Only each person can decide what offends them. Rewriting the COCs or a stricter appication won't change that.

Just by the "heat" and strong stances you can read in some of the posts here, it's obvious why politics and religion shouldn't be topics for open discussion.

The Mods and administrative staff here do an excellent job. Even among the Mods there will be times of extreme disagreement. That is to be expected as we are human and different in our own ways. Functioning as it does, this website allows all members the opportunity participate and to see how difficult it is to try to fairly interpret, apply and if necessary, enforce the COCs.

I will speak no more on this subject.
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I like the COCs as they are. I don't like carving out an exception just because some people would prefer to be able to make religious posts.

When a vote comes up, I'll vote to leave them alone, and to read the plain meaning within the words - and not to have one or more exceptions. No means no.

Mike

[Regarding the statement I highlighted in red, I like the CoCs just fine, have never complained about them, and have never been accused of not following them. What I'm advocating is that everyone follow them.

I also never said that I find the threads offensive and I've never "reported" a thread as offensive. So please do not try to put words in my mouth that I did not say.

And why is it that because I disagree with you, you recommend that I not come to this forum?]
 
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Mike Henderson said:
I like the COCs as they are. I don't like carving out an exception just because some people would prefer to be able to make religious posts.

When a vote comes up, I'll vote to leave them alone, and to read the plain meaning within the words - and not to have one or more exceptions. No means no.

Mike

[Regarding the statement I highlighted in red, I like the CoCs just fine, have never complained about them, and have never been accused of not following them. What I'm advocating is that everyone follow them.

--snip--
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Comes down to what the definition of "Religious" is don't it?
Mike, I no longer read every post here, I'm not on staff, so that is not something I have to do. Like you, I'm very busy, I read what interests me, sorry if I miss out some good posts, but time is limited. I must have missed the posts where someone is breaking the CoC when it comes to religion, could you, or anyone else, please point me to these posts so I can take a look? I'm not saying they do not exist, they may very well, but I've not seen them. :dunno: If the problem is as widespread as the response here is generating, I suspect that this should be a fairly easy thing to do.

Now to get some things straight(ish);

Saying Christmas is OK..?
How about wishing the members here a Merry Christmas, is that copacetic?

Do I bring up Easter?

I agree with those who said that talking about the woodworking you did for the local church is just fine, proselytizing about it is not, can we agree on that?

Showing a picture of a cross you made for your local church, or to sell for a local church fund raiser, is that OK?

Asking for thoughts and prayers, now this one has to be fine, come on, it is not asking just for prayers, but for both thoughts and prayers, so if one wishes to send kind thought waves across the fruited plain, or send prayers to the deity of your choice, how can that be offensive?

When I was a mod and we were setting up this place as I recall, we came up with the interpretation that "No Religion" in the CoC meant no "Proselytizing Religion" is the working definition.

Right now as I see it, the hard knot we are working on here is defining "Religion", what constitutes breaking the no "Religion" clause of the CoC. If we were to add the word "Proselytizing" to the CoC as in "No Proselytizing Religion" would that help?

I fear it would just shift the discussion to the definition of "Proselytizing" :doh:

I've yet to see a "Zero Tolerance" rule that worked in the real world, I think we have to let the mods guided by their good judgment choose the fine line on some of these issues, and yes, it can be hard, I know I was in the hot seat myself for some time.

I'll wait for the examples of people breaking the CoC, like I said, I do not read every thread, so because of the fervor of the arguments here I simply must believe the examples must be widespread.

Cheers!
 
Rick Prosser said:
One of the more heated debates is related to asking for prayers.

Prayer is part of most religions that I know of, but is not the only method of seeking intervention. Some religions use animal sacrifice - Santeria and Voodoo for instance. These are minority, but recognized religions.

If I was going thru a rough time, and my religious beliefs led me to request animal sacrifices to help - would that be offensive? (in the religious sense, not the animal rights sense)

I assume it would be offensive to those who don't want to allow prayer requests since it is still a religious activity, but how about those who support allowing prayer requests?

Maybe this is too much a stretch, but I try to see both sides if I can.
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Rick it would not bother me at all if you asked, if that was your religion, but I would not be able to comply, with a specific request for this defined kind of sacrifice. I would think good kind thoughts and encourage you to keep putting one foot in front of the other as days will improve instead.

Much like asking for thoughts and prayers, no one is saying "I'm a member of the First United Church of Canada and I only want other members of said religious order to pray for me" :rolleyes: or at least I've never seen that here :)
 
this stuff is just plain ole silly.

This is typical of woodworkers to complicate the simpliest stuff.

Just eliminate it all.

Nothing that can even be remotely associated with religion or politics, zap it all, and thats that.

No tag lines, no skipping aroud words, just leave it out.

this is a family, yes I know. And we dont like cursing, and we leave it out.
So really, how hard is it to substitute any word like thoughts, vibes, support, feelings for the word prayer.

I have to think, someone asking for prayers in a time of need is really asking for prayers as in something one would do in a house of worship.

so either we allow it , or we ban it all, tag lines, jokes, references.

everyone will never be happy, but this can be an issue that no longer needs attention.

Its so simple what is the problem?

lets move on, lets enjoy the woodworking life a bit, lets not sweat the little things like this.

There are millions of sites to discuss religion and politics.

Lets talk buffets and hollow forms.
 
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No longer a moderator nor do I want to be again. But having been one I have a simple question. Why has someone, preferable a moderator or several moderators working together, not posted a simple non-binding poll asking how many members think there is a problem?

You can discuss it death and a few vocal people will post their opinions but what does that tell you? A simple poll would give a much better indication of how the majority feels.
 
I have a question for EVERYONE, what will constitute the meaning of prayers? ie: asking for or offering up prayers?
In the case of a tragedy's..... If some respones, I wish you well, my thoughts are with you excedra excedra , this would or could be conscrewed as a forum of prayer. So do we band any conversation which could lead to the expressions of prayers? Say one of our members has a family members pass away or a son killed in action, I guess rules are rules.
I have made some good friends here that will be friends for a long time and so not to rock the boat in reguards to future comments where I am lead to offer such "well wishes" I will bid you all adue.
I have strong respect for my friends on here, and you know where to find me.

In His Service
Dave Hawksford
 
now dave, that signature of yours, "In His Service", to some, one, could smack of, religion!:eek::eek: (quick martha! hide the kids eyes!). you never know, it could mean a visit from (queue dramatic music here, door is kicked open), nobody expects the CoC! (sorry monty python). to some, one, it could be taken as a religious statement. am i offended by it? no, but some, one, might. oh well, live and let live i say. if some, one, is offended, hand them a bottle of coke, and a twinkie, and point them to the nearest quiet corner.
 
Dave Hawksford said:
I have a question for EVERYONE, what will constitute the meaning of prayers? ie: asking for or offering up prayers?
In the case of a tragedy's..... If some respones, I wish you well, my thoughts are with you excedra excedra , this would or could be conscrewed as a forum of prayer. So do we band any conversation which could lead to the expressions of prayers? Say one of our members has a family members pass away or a son killed in action, I guess rules are rules.
I have made some good friends here that will be friends for a long time and so not to rock the boat in reguards to future comments where I am lead to offer such "well wishes" I will bid you all adue.
I have strong respect for my friends on here, and you know where to find me.

In His Service
Dave Hawksford
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dave, hang around here.. there will be some kind of decision made shortly as to what they are going to do with the religious aspect of this forum,, and what ever is decided we can alter our normal ways of writing our thoughts to accommodate it.. this doesnt mean we have to stop being who we are, just that in certain times we need to write appropriately.. just as you or i dont cuss in text but have in person together.. you and everyone else here are valuble asset to the forum as a whole and if we cant get along and adjust our ways to make the family work smoothly then we never had a family to begin with.
 
John Bartley said:
... If Dave is allowed to have "in His service" in his sig line without anyone being allowed to be offended, then can I have "**** happens" in mine? ...
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I see nothing wrong with having "Love Happens" in a signature line! :D

Freedom of speech is one thing and I know some people (like my FIL) who exercise their right to cuss all day long. He can't seem to process the fact that most people consider the need to cuss all the time as an indication of low intelligence. :huh:
 
I think some are losing focus here.

This issue is not supposed to offend anyone.

It was opened up to toss around some ideas and see how people felt.

Noone should be directing any comments at anyone else.

The comments should only be directed at the issue.

There are few places on the planet where issues are never going to be brought up, this board is no exception.

Insulting each other or acting anyway other than civil and respectful towards one another, is totally uncalled for.(not directed at anyone, and not meaning any disrespect)

Please, lets remain focused and remember we all share a common bond that brought us to this site in the first place.

on a side note-my wife attended a funeral service Sunday.
A 41 y/o mother of 2 teenaged daughters lost her 10 year battle with cancer.
This woman moved alot of people with her courage and character. I didnt know her. I do know her surgical oncologist got up and spoke at her service.
Neither my wife nor I have ever heard of a surgeon getting up to speak about a patient they lost, so Im figuring this woman really inspired people.

This board and its small speed bump in question here is just that, a small little bump on an otherwise smoothly running internet board.
Lets not make it more than it is.
Im sure we all can come to a solution if we remain civil and listen to each other.
This is nothing that cant be solved.

Im happy I can get up each day and spend 30 minutes here and enjoy sharing wood related topics with everyone.
Please, lets stay focused.
 
If Dave is allowed to have "in His service" in his sig line without anyone being allowed to be offended, then can I have "**** happens" in mine?


because yours is a vulgarity.
 
John Bartley said:
As is his to many of us who feel that the organised religions are an evil curse upon the earth. My impression is that many religious people seem to feel that they have the right to ignore the rules any time that their faith is involved. All the rest of us are looking for is equal time, and if there are restrictions on us, then those same restrictions should be placed onto and apply equally to all others, no more, no less than equal treatment.

John
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The use of foul language is frowned upon by most people, regardless of whether they are "religious" or not. The "seven dirty words", and then some, are called dirty, foul, or profane for a reason.
 
Ok Folks,

I really think this thread has gone far enough and is really no longer productive.

I don't see any new arguments being expressed here, and basically it is starting to devolve into exactly the type of thread the CoC was meant to guard against.

Unless you have some clearly new point of view, please quit rehashing the same points over and over again.

I would suggest that perhaps there are projects out in your shops that could require much more attention than this thread.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
 
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