business question?

larry merlau

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Delton, Michigan
in the "retirement thread" bob mentioned turning down several jobs in woodworking that was for, friends of his family, or himself.. now that brings up a question.. doing work for friends can turn friendships into bad times..so those of you making some income off woodworking,, whats your thoughts on this.. is it a good idea, or are there certain criteria that needs to be done to maintain a safe situation to avoid the bad times???
 
Larry, I think it's a great idea to make items for friends and family. As long as you are up front about everything and tell them exactly what to expect I think it will work out fine. I haven't made much $$ on it, but I have sold several items to friends and family. I haven't had any transactions turn sour yet. I know I've sold myself short several times and I've also had friends give me more than I have asked because they thought I was to low...A couple of pieces have had problems and I either fixed it or replaced it with something else....right now I'm looking for some wood to knock on too. :thumb::)
 
Oh I don't know, no cost, no problem!:rolleyes::rofl:
Uhmmmm, what else can I add in a sarcastic note???;):D:rofl:

I think I know where Larry is coming from on this post. My mom is trying to commission him to make her a solid wood kitchen for their retirement home on my farm. She taught with a guy that made sheds, doll houses and such. His shop burnt down this summer and he is not rebuilding. So she met Larry and Randi at our home and they went with us to my birthday supper at the tavern where the delicious steaks are served. I mentioned to her that Larry could build her a kitchen and it would be outstanding.

So, I see the problem I created for him. On one hand he doesn't want to ruin a friendship (he won't) and on the other hand, he wants to make a profit for his time (which he is entitled to). So that is a little more background information for you folks to help him.
 
well where i am at in this, is i have a possible job but the friendship of this family is worth more than any dollar amount.. i might get for the work mentioned..yet i cant do it for it free,, that doesnt keep me fit either:)
 
That's why I haven't charged for anything so far Larry. For my wife and kids making stuff for free is no problem. I only ask for a little help with paying for hardware or fancy wood if the project is really big. I had my daughter pay for some of the punched tin on the pie safe I made for her.

The reason I have turned work down for other family and friends is that they seem to want a deal all the time. A $1000 worth of project for $200 or something like that. If they agree to say, $500.00 and they are not happy with it for whatever reason then I'd feel obligated to give them their money back.

I think I'll start selling stuff but only to leads I get from my wife or kids. I will have them sign off on design and finish before I make it and collect 1/2 up front.

It sure is a dilemma though.
 
I have done a few things for fee to family and friends, although mostly I prefer to make gifts. My dilema is I don't really feel like the quality of my work justifies a reasonable hourly wage at my work speed in the shop. It's a hobby for me, so I don't really bust my tail working on it. If it were a full time job, I'd work twice as fast probably, so my rates have to reflect that.

I try and start pricing things at what they're worth, comparible to a similar product of similar quality. Then I look at the hourly rate, and level of interest I have in the project. Ultimately I have turned down a number of jobs because I dont' feel like I can provide a good product at the right price. I don't like charging a friend more than I think the final product is worth, even if it's only a modest rate for myself. When the deal makes sense for both parties involved, then I've taken a few projects.
 
I've had no issues charging for the items I have made at a price I thought was fair and we both agree on.

I do have some family that asks for me to build stuff for them all the time. I tell them "Sure I'd be happy to help you do the work, when are you free?" They've never taken me up on that offer, so I don't think that's what they expected. :dunno: ;)
 
I love these kind of posts. :thumb: They give me something to chew on.:D

Here is my view. Business is business.

What is needed is to be upfront on both sides of the equation. Problem is some people have difficulty being that way with strangers never mind friends.

My approach is this is what agreements are for or rather contracts.

Yeah people hate paper work but i found that it prevents the fading memory that says "I thought you said this or that" or I understood that was included.

So i give you my 5 cents to a contract. It aint difficult at all. Does not need to be written by lawyers because you would probably not go there.


1) An agreement/contract is only as good as the intent between the two parties so it records the intent.

Simply put i will make x and you will pay Y.

2)What needs to be covered are.

a)Specification of the deliverable

Defining what will be made and to what degree of quality as best as one can. The less vauge and clearer the more understanding. This is where i think Sketchup is a great tool to be able to show a design and finish before one starts. Then attach the drawing and you have a basis of specification

aspects that should be covered are materials (ie particle board or ply or solid wood,) and finishes (spray, hand brush, wipe etc) hardware to be used and who chooses the hardware and who purchases it/supplies it.


b) Payment terms.

Simply state the amount and the way in which it will be paid. So say 20% on signature of the contract, then work your way through on the deliverable stages (say visual inspection of cabinets before install, installation and then final completion.

c) Define a method for costing and catering for changes/extras. If a person changes there mind after the job has been started it should be understood that even if it is possible to accomodate the change that a change incurs a cost.

Lets remember there is always a overhead cost to the aspect of dealing with a change even between friends.

d) Define risks and who carries them. This is not that difficult to do.

Example I had a guy do my deck when we first arrived here. He wished to leave his tools in my garage. I said fine no problem but in the contract i stated that he agree that i am not liable for any of his tools should they go missing on my property.

Same for material he left it on the driveway and then moved it to the back of the lot. At one point it was in two places and all around us was still open areas. This was cedar i felt it was attractive enough to steal. So i made sure to enclose a clause about loss of material on site.

Same went for accidents. Say one of his guys fell off the deck before they had railings on. I made clear in the agreement that he was responsible for safety of himself and his personnel.

Same for damage to property. I made him agree that were he to put a 4x4 post through one of my windows he was going to have to remedy it and agree to that fact.

e) Define any regulations to which the job should comply. IN my decks case being a new comer i obtained the required permit. Town planner checked over the plans and required an extra couple of posts.

Now in my deal and contract the contractor had assured me the plan he provided from the structural point of view was according to code. So i said fine any extra the town requires is going to be at his expense. (Why did i do this. Sounds mean right. But it would be easy for us not to have had that in the agreement and the guy could have designed and secured my contract on the basis of a plan that would not meet code and then all the extras would be real extras to the price. I wanted to know what i was in for upfront and thus be able to be in control of my own budget.
This way his error cost him not me. But there was no bitterness because it had been made clear up front and he felt he was correct. So he ate the extra cost.

f)Define delivery .

When should x stage be reach and when should y stage be reached and what is the latest date for completion. Define a penalty. Yes this sounds mean to but it prevents the abuse either way. One can always wave a term after it is in the contract. One cannot get into the contract something that was not there to begin with unless one renegotiates the contract.

My deck guy was a very happy chap and so was i. He never hesitated to sign the contract because both of us understood what each other had to do.

I supplied plenty of barley hops at the end of each day for him and all his crew and he provided an extra or two that had not been in the price at his own doing.

Same worked for my workshop and also happy contractors. Paperwork put every one at ease and made it clear neither party was out to take advantage of the other party.

Best way to function ask Holmes.

BTW in the case of both my contractors to date i gave them unsolicited letters of recomendation and offered in the letter for any prospective customer to be able to call me and view the work if they like.
 
In this day and age of particle wood furniture, I find most normal walmart shopping people like my wife and friends would never even pay the price of good quality plywood - Let alone the labor required to build anything. They are just clueless about what that stuff cost (hardwood, cabinet grade ply, etc.).

Never forget when I came home with $500 of sheet goods for an entertainment center. Wife said "my goodness, the one I wanted was $600 and all you would have to do is go pick it up":huh:

Every now and then you will find someone that wants and knows quality. They also usually know where to find it.

I have sworn to keep it a hobby and keep the fun in it. You want me to build something, come over and we'll build it together.....

Just my 2 cents...
 
See my above post Larry, beat you by a milisecond!:rofl::rofl::thumb::thumb:

Generally I tell people/friends that I don't have enough time to build all the stuff that I want to for myself, let alone for others. And that is the truth.
That isn't any help to Larry....

On the other hand I have three times hired people I consider friends to do work at my house. That was strictly business, as I was hiring them to "ply their trade" and I did not expect free work from them. Maybe I'm just an exceptionally nice guy? :wave: The main reason I did so was that I wanted to throw them the business, but even more than that is trust. It is so nice to know that you totally trust the person doing work for you. :thumb:

If I was in your shoes, Larry, ---- That is to say, if I wanted to do a favour for a friend/acquaintance --- I would be totally up front about them covering all costs for materials, and then we'd work out some form of remuneration above that.

That said, I can't really argue with Allen's comment either.

...art
 
Rob, your response was one of the best I have ever seen on how to minimize problems between builders and clients. I hope others here pay attention to the points you made. They apply whether you are the client or the builder.

Great post!
 
why not just offer up a price after working up the numbers, and its either a yes or no answer.

Mostly because they want things that are already sold in stores, but think I can make it cheaper. It's faster to just tell them you can't make it economically, but I also worry they might think I'm trying to charge them a really high hourly rate.
 
I've never pulled any punches when a friend or family member has asked about my building something. I give them a fair estimate for what a custom piece will cost and the typical response is, "But I can get the same thing at Walmart for $19." I suggest they go to Walmart.

It helps that I point out what they're really getting at a bargain place. As was mentioned earlier, particle board junk is just that - junk. Serviceable, but junk in the long run. Look at terminology: "Cherry finish" does NOT mean the item is solid cherry wood.

We don't "hang" with ritzy folk. We regular folk might be able to appreciate a fine, custom piece of furniture but we can't afford it. But, we can afford to build it for ourselves. Friends on our social level see the furniture I built for our master bedroom and ask if I could build them something similar. When I tell them a friend who is an interior designer said she could buy our king size bed for $15,000 and sell it at a handsome profit, they lose interest real quick.

One part of me would like to sell something occasionally, even if it just starts helping pay for the hobby - forget the value of custom creations. On the other hand, I know what custom items are worth and don't have to sell myself short.
 
Larry it sounds like if you do what Allen said but write it up like Rob said you should be good to go. It's really very simple.

I always tell anyone that wants me to give them a price to build something that they saw in the store to go back to that store and buy it cause I'm not building it for that price. Then I go on to tell them that if the want me to build them something that they can't find anywhere else then I'm the person to come to but to expect to pay more than Walmart or Ikea prices!
 
I've never made a dime of of family. I either build as gifts, or just charge them for materials.

I've also been known to turn down some requests, if I think they're gonna be more trouble than they're worth.
 
Larry what i do when it involves case work, is check the locial cab shops. Around here they are getting $350.00 for lowers and $225 for uppers. Now that's the high end shops that we use in these big houses. That's a linear ft. That includes materal, labor,finish, and install. tops extra:D For a good friend i'll just do them cost plus. That way you bouth come out to the good.
 
Quite honestly, since it is my parents, I do know they are used to paying for more than walmart crap when dealing with a craftsman.
My honest opinion Larry, get all the details worked out with mom, the sizes, the styles, I know she wants dovetails on the drawers, but also know she won't know or care if they were cut with a jig or by hand so obviously the quicker of the two options earns you more money by using less time. Anyway, figure everything out, include your time. If it is beyond their means, she won't ask you to sell for walmart prices. But she may find she needs to go to plywood carcasses or other things. Corian will be the countertops. Once you two think it is all figured out, put it in writing. This will be somewhat easy even though they will be in Florida all winter. You two can converse through email easily. They aren't rich, but they can afford to spend what they agree with you on. You know a lot of the back history of this house that someday we hope becomes their home. Agree with her on money, percentage up front to pay for your materials. So much again after so many cabinets built/completed/stained/whatever. Final payment upon installation. Oh yeah, you need to install, otherwise you know me, might be in the garage 10 years from now!!!
 
Larry in Michigan building for a client in Indiana?? Does distance add any complications or add to the cost? How long to install and will the area already be prepped?
 
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