Building lacquer

Dave Black

Member
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638
Location
Central PA
I am working on some drums and I am using a satin nitro lacquer. I want a thinner finish so I tried 3 or 4 coats then sanded it flat. I still had some slight indentations from the grain on the hickory and I didn't want to sand any further because I thought I was close to going through so I sprayed another 3 or so coats on it. When I looked at it after those next coats the grain indentations where much larger than they were before the 2nd round of coats. Sooo I sanded it flat again with 400 grit and almost had the grain dents out when I started seeing wood. I just started a 3rd round of coats and the grain dents are move visible again. I am using minwax brushing lacquer and no sealer. Is this because I didn't use sealer?
 
I've never worked with hickory, but here's a typical schedule I use:

Start with a bit of BLO/Naphtha to bring out the grain, let it cure a few days, then seal with several coats of dewaxed shellac; sand to 220. On mahogany, I've used a grain filler at this point to help flatten it. Sand to 220. Next, I spray on a couple of coats of NC lacquer and sand with 320 to flatten it. Then, a final topcoat of NC and let it cure. All of the finish products I use to this point are clear gloss to build depth. I rubout with FF pumice, then rottenstone to get the desired sheen; i.e., satin, semi-gloss, etc.
 
I am an avid Target Coatings fan, but I like this grain filler - Behlen's water based... It works well under both waterbase and solvent based finishes, dries fast. So fast that it is a little hard to wipe, but since I sand off any filler left on the surface anyway, that isn't a big deal to me.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2004493/BEHLEN-WaterBased-Grain-Filler.aspx

Behlen's filler is mineral based - when you pick up a can, it is much heavier than you would expect, like there is a rock in it. Behlens provides the carrier and glue that seals the fine ground mineral into the surface and gives a super smooth surface. I use the brown even on a light wood such as oak, since I want the pores to be dark, not white. DAMHIK.
 
David how the drums turn out.

Behlins grain filler is what I use also. Great product. :thumb:

they look awesome, i'll try to get a pic tonight. I didn't use any grain filler on these, but next time I will. I ended having to fix a crack in one of the drum shells when I was at the buffing stage so I had fix the lacquer, it was pretty easy with the nitro lacquer, Does the water borne stuff fix easily? The stuff I was looking at (target em6000 and general finish enduro water borne lacquer) is 100% burn in but I think its only with in a certain time frame. I have heard that denatured alcohol can be used to achieve burn in when not in the time frame, never tried that or the water borne stuff so don't know yet.
 
here they are, I am waiting on the chrome hardware for them, should be here friday. I used satin winwax lacquer, but then I decided to buff them out to a gloss. Its a little hard to see in the pictures but there is some curly figure in the hickory.
 

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...The stuff I was looking at (target em6000 and general finish enduro water borne lacquer) is 100% burn in but I think its only with in a certain time frame. ...

I use Target EM6000 - I am not aware of a time limit for the burn it. In fact it even burns into NC solvent lacquer (at least to some degree). It does dry in minutes for dry sanding and/or recoating, but allow 5 days to cure before doing any rubbing compounds or wet sanding.

I have not heard that General Finish Enduro lacquer had burn in, so I went to the spec sheets, and did not find a claim of any burn in.
 
I use Target EM6000 - I am not aware of a time limit for the burn it. In fact it even burns into NC solvent lacquer (at least to some degree). It does dry in minutes for dry sanding and/or recoating, but allow 5 days to cure before doing any rubbing compounds or wet sanding.

I have not heard that General Finish Enduro lacquer had burn in, so I went to the spec sheets, and did not find a claim of any burn in.

here is where I read that
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/generalfinishes.htm#enduroclears

it says 4-6hours beside the picture of the mandolin
 
The drum shells came out looking great, Dave. :thumb: The pics don't show it real prominently, but I can tell you have a nice gloss finish on the wood. :clap: I'll bet they'll sound nice when you get all the hardware and heads on them.
 
With the drums being cherry I do not see where you would have needed filler. With 2 or 3 coats of sealer and sanding between coats you would be ok.
One thing you do need to watch is the amount of lacquer you build , make sure you read the spec's for the particular lacquer your using, they will crack out.
 
With the drums being cherry I do not see where you would have needed filler. With 2 or 3 coats of sealer and sanding between coats you would be ok.
One thing you do need to watch is the amount of lacquer you build , make sure you read the spec's for the particular lacquer your using, they will crack out.

These are hickory drums, so there was some open grain, I think I have about 10 coats on them, I thought grain filler would allow me to do fewer coats.
 
here is where I read that
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/generalfinishes.htm#enduroclears

it says 4-6hours beside the picture of the mandolin

I have a huge amount of respect for Jeff Jewitt, but a max of 4-6 hours to get burn in means I must do all the coats in a single day if I want burn in (which I certainly want if I am going to do any rub out - witness lines between coats are a bitch). This is similar to the "burn in" of polyurethane.

The Target EM6000 is on 30% off sale much of the time (making it $37.10 per gallon), compared to $43.34 for Enduro from Jewitt. EM6000 has 28% solids while the Enduro only has 23% - this is what stays on the project after all the drying is done, and is what determines how much you have to apply - so that makes the EM6000 far cheaper.

I keep hoping for another brand of full burn in water base lacquer, in case there is a problem with Target, but I haven't found it yet.
 
I have a huge amount of respect for Jeff Jewitt, but a max of 4-6 hours to get burn in means I must do all the coats in a single day if I want burn in (which I certainly want if I am going to do any rub out - witness lines between coats are a bitch). This is similar to the "burn in" of polyurethane.

The Target EM6000 is on 30% off sale much of the time (making it $37.10 per gallon), compared to $43.34 for Enduro from Jewitt. EM6000 has 28% solids while the Enduro only has 23% - this is what stays on the project after all the drying is done, and is what determines how much you have to apply - so that makes the EM6000 far cheaper.

I keep hoping for another brand of full burn in water base lacquer, in case there is a problem with Target, but I haven't found it yet.

I haven't used either so I don't know, I believe that stewart macdonald uses target em6000 branded under their name for their guitar finishes they sell,
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents.html
actually I see they now sell it as target, rather than rebranding it, so i figured it must work well. I see that Jeff Jewitt used to sell target but now sells the enduro. I would guess that both are good, but as you said 4-6 hours would make it difficult to put several coats on. Have you tried the denatured alcohol trick. I can't remember where I saw that, maybe on the ghostnote drum builders forum.
 
... Have you tried the denatured alcohol trick. I can't remember where I saw that, maybe on the ghostnote drum builders forum.

The chemistry of water base finishes is quite complex, so I would not risk the long term durability of the finish by tinkering with the chemistry (by coating with denatured alcohol)

In fact, I sometimes soak the spray gun nozzle and air cap in DNA between use - if the finish has not cured, the DNA loosens the finish so any overspray on the air cap can be brushed off later. Makes me doubly scared of the DNA idea.
 
I am an avid Target Coatings fan, but I like this grain filler - Behlen's water based... It works well under both waterbase and solvent based finishes, dries fast. So fast that it is a little hard to wipe, but since I sand off any filler left on the surface anyway, that isn't a big deal to me.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2004493/BEHLEN-WaterBased-Grain-Filler.aspx

Behlen's filler is mineral based - when you pick up a can, it is much heavier than you would expect, like there is a rock in it. Behlens provides the carrier and glue that seals the fine ground mineral into the surface and gives a super smooth surface. I use the brown even on a light wood such as oak, since I want the pores to be dark, not white. DAMHIK.

Wow thanks for this tip Charlie. I wish i had known it some time back.;):thumb:

Dave those Drums look really cool you gonna let us hear them when you done hardware and all?:)
 
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