Question on shellac

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33
Planning to grain fill, I used shellac as a wash coat on Mahogany as a prior step. After doing so, I realized that it may not have been dewaxed. The shellac was Zinsser Bulseye and did not indciate dewaxed on the can. Planned on using Laquer as the final finish.

How large of mistake is this?

Thanks
Sal
 
THIS TEXT HAS BEEN CHANGED. DUE TO ERRONEOUS INFORMATION IN THE PREVIOUS TEXT FROM YOURS TRULY.

I have two "Zinsser Bulls Eye" products:

1) One says, "Seal Coat." This is a dewaxed shellac. It is made to use as an undercoat for almost anything. It can also be used as a finish coat shellac.

2) The other says, "Shellac." This does contain wax. It is a finish coat. My understanding is that it is difficult or impossible to use other finishes over it. Other posts, later in this thread, discuss that topic. I have never tried to use another product over the shellac which contains wax.

I sincerely hope that I did not cause anyone a problem.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
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Zinsser is what Bulseye calls their de-waxed shellac. You didn't goof. It makes an excellent seal. It makes a lousy fill.

The preceeding is from a guy who does use Zinsser and shellac. In fact he used it today, yesterday, the day before and the day before that. He is also a guy who does not have a lot of finishing experience.

Enjoy,

JimB

My son, Glenn, uses Zinsser quite a bit.

Jim, Zinsser is the brand name. Bullseye is a product name.

Zinsser sells "Seal Coat", which is indeed a dewaxed shellac, per the tech data sheet:

http://www.rustoleumibg.com/images/...YE SEALCOAT Universal Sanding Sealer_2010.pdf

They also sell "Bullseye Shellac", which does have wax in it, as I understand things. (Although the spray can version does not, also as I understand it.) However, in their tech data sheet, they only caution about using it under polyurethanes.

http://www.rustoleumibg.com/images/tds/CBG_ZIN_TDS_BE ShellacTraditional Finish Sealer.pdf

Sal, I think I'd use denatured alcohol to wipe off as much of the shellac as you can, followed by a wipe-down of mineral spirits to remove any remaining wax. Then I'd use a lacquer sanding sealer (or just plain lacquer) to seal the pores on the mahogany. A few coats of sealer, light sanding, then a few coats of the final lacquer should do the trick.
 
you can cover over the waxed shellac with dewaxed and then use your lacquer with no trouble..no need to wash of the other, if you want to light sand the first coat of shellac and then recover with seal coat you can do that as well.. and 2coats of lacquer sealer is best before scuff sanding to ensure you have some thickness before hiting it with the clear coats of lacquer,,
 
Thanks all for the replies. Should have mentioned, I purchase but did not yet use Behlen's grain fill. Wanted to try this out and understood that the wash coat of Shellac should be done before the grain fill.

For te shellac wash coat, I diluted it with an equal part of denatured alcohol. wiped it on and scuff sanded after it dried.

Seems from the replies that safe/easy approach is to get dewaxed shellac and go give it another wash coat. or am I taking too much of a chance.

I can test on scrap; but not if the probem shows up over the long haul.

Thanks again
 
Jim, what you have is indeed the dewaxed Zinsser product. They make another shellac product (the one that Sal has) that does have wax in it.

Larry, thanks for the tip about putting dewaxed over waxed shellac. That's a good one to know. ;)
 
Right On Vaughn,

My other can says, "Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac, Traditional Finish and Sealer." It has a yellow label with a white band at the top. Guess I never noticed the "Zinsser" up at the top. It does have wax.

Guess that ruins my George Washington "Never told a lie" image.

Enjoy,

JimB

I went back and changed my original entry. I do not want anyone to read what I erroneously wrote there. The new information there should be correct since I have a can of "Shellac" and a can of "Seal Coat" shellac sitting on my desk as I write this.

The Seal Coat can is sort of a "woodsy" color with a white band at the top. The Shellac can is a bright yellow with a white band at the top.
 
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...Guess that ruins my George Washington "Never told a lie" image...

No worries. That image is a myth, but I'm sure you already knew that, seeing as how you and George went to high school together. (Or at least that's what Glenn told me.) :D

The image is overblown anyway. You know all the cute girls like a little "bad boy" in their men. :p :thumb:
 
Glad this came up cause this zinsser crowd really make a mess of their labels in my humble opinion. They could be straitforward and i am sure they would get more customers having a better experience. Sal you aint alone in this ( they use the word sealer on the waxed stuff can. ) why not put wax nowax.
In Canada i cannot tell you how many stores i have been in checked for this stuff and come across a variety of labels and been so confused as to put it back on shelf and leave. One should not have to onsult the safety charts to establish wax no wax issue.
Apologies for rant but this type of marketing spoils our hobby.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
 
Rob,

I am with you. I think the labeling is confusing. I think the product is great.

Hey, it took that youngster, Vaughn, to set me straight.
It is pretty bad when the younger generation (Vaughn and Glenn) have to give advice to their elders (me) who are supposed to be full of wisdom. That word is wisdom---It starts with a "W" not a "B."

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Glad this came up cause this zinsser crowd really make a mess of their labels in my humble opinion. They could be straitforward and i am sure they would get more customers having a better experience. Sal you aint alone in this ( they use the word sealer on the waxed stuff can. ) why not put wax nowax.
In Canada i cannot tell you how many stores i have been in checked for this stuff and come across a variety of labels and been so confused as to put it back on shelf and leave. One should not have to onsult the safety charts to establish wax no wax issue.
Apologies for rant but this type of marketing spoils our hobby.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
The Zinsser cans I've seen (and just checked online) are pretty clear about what's in them. Zinsser Shellac is the natural product with wax. Zinsser SealCoat is the de-waxed product and states it on the face of the label: "100% Wax-Free Formula".

Now, don't get me started on the date code! My local borg finally got a 'fresh' shipment of SealCoat. Both cans are already a year old! :huh:
 
the saga continues

Just got Behlen's Pore o Pac (or something like that name) grain filler and reducer. Ordered with the medium brown color to see the impact on highlighting the grain on Mahaogany. Seems that after applying it also significantly darkened the surrounding wood. I am asuming that my wash coat needs to be heavier or is this the expected result? Tried washing some of this off next day; but that also removes some from the grain and doesn't fully remove the darkened tint. I wanted to maintain the original Mahaogany color and just darken the grain.

Doing all this on scrap, last night I also tried mixing some pumice I have with shellac. Made a paste and applied it. It seemed to work. did not give the darkening to the grain (sort of greyish and to be expected given the color of the powder). Any issues with this approach?

Sorry for the back and forth; but just can't find these answers easily elsewhere.

Thanks
Sal
 
What's "look" are you working towards, Sal? Do you want to produce a "glass" finish where the grain is fully filled in and the finish is like a mirror? Or do you just want to reduce the amount of grain voids in the wood?

And how big is your project? There are things you can do to a small, flat surface that you wouldn't want to do to a large project, or one with a complex shape?

I'll note that our ancestors would do a French polish on the visible surface of a piece of furniture (such as the top of a bureau or a small table top) but would not do that on the rest of the piece.

Mike
 
What's "look" are you working towards, Sal? Do you want to produce a "glass" finish where the grain is fully filled in and the finish is like a mirror? Or do you just want to reduce the amount of grain voids in the wood?

And how big is your project? There are things you can do to a small, flat surface that you wouldn't want to do to a large project, or one with a complex shape?


Mike

Mike,

I have two surfaces of approx 40" X 14" each. I am not going for a french polish; but wanted to reduce the grain. Part of the my goal was to better understand the process and results of grain filling.

The Behlen product did a good job with the grain however it changed the tone of the overall Mahogany significantly. I am now experimenting with wiping it down with the reducer to get some of the surface color off. This seems to also take out some of the grain fill.

Best
Sal
 
If all you want to do is reduce the grain, I'd shoot dewaxed shellac full strength, then sand the wood with a fine sandpaper, such as P220 in a ROS. Then do it again until you have about three coats of shellac on the wood. What you're doing is filling in the grain with the shellac.

Then shoot your lacquer. If there's too much grain, sand that down with P220 sandpaper and shoot again. You want to do two final coats with no sanding between them.

It's difficult to describe how much to sand. You don't want to take all the finish off, especially in the grain. When you sand after the first coat, you might take more off than when you sand later. The sanding will leave marks in the finish, which I find takes two final coats to cover (no sanding on those two final coats).

You can actually go to a mirror finish with this technique but it takes more coats and more sanding. After the final coat has cured, take some polishing compound and rub it down. But don't do this if there's still grain voids. The polishing compound will get stuck in the voids and will dry white. So your finish will have white speckles in it. Not pretty and hard to get rid of.

Mike
 
this thread just saved me a big mistake on a project, as I had had a brain hiccup and bought the wrong can the other week. I *know* about waxed vs dewaxed, but somehow I just wasn't thinking about it when I picked up some shellac.

Thanks!
 
If all you want to do is reduce the grain, I'd shoot dewaxed shellac full strength, then sand the wood with a fine sandpaper, such as P220 in a ROS. Then do it again until you have about three coats of shellac on the wood. What you're doing is filling in the grain with the shellac.

Then shoot your lacquer. If there's too much grain, sand that down with P220 sandpaper and shoot again. You want to do two final coats with no sanding between them.

It's difficult to describe how much to sand. You don't want to take all the finish off, especially in the grain. When you sand after the first coat, you might take more off than when you sand later. The sanding will leave marks in the finish, which I find takes two final coats to cover (no sanding on those two final coats).

You can actually go to a mirror finish with this technique but it takes more coats and more sanding. After the final coat has cured, take some polishing compound and rub it down. But don't do this if there's still grain voids. The polishing compound will get stuck in the voids and will dry white. So your finish will have white speckles in it. Not pretty and hard to get rid of.

Mike

Mike, giving it a try this week. I post how it goes.

Sal
 
One thing said that I would worry about. Shellac is like lacquer, with full burn in. Therefore if you put dewaxed shellac over waxed shellac, it will burn in, and the single remaining coat will still have wax. Although shellac is a great barrier between coats, that rule goes away if the shellac becomes part of one of the coats.

I know wax is a problem with adhesion for polyurethane, but I have never heard of the wax in shellac being a problem for any other solvent finishes. I have used solvent lacquer over shellac, and to my knowledge, no problem (it has been years since I used solvent lacquer for a customer, and nobody has complained).

For water based finishes, I use only dewaxed shellac.

I am a fan of Target coatings, except for their water based shellac. It uses similar chemistry to their water base lacquer, so the lacquer burns into the shellac, and the resulting finish has some of the characteristics of a shellac finish... not as durable as I needed for a project. Not fun to fix.
 
Charlie,

thanks for the info. I ended up sanding off the waxed shellac and recoated with dewaxed. For this project, I will finish with solvent laquer; but given your comments on the water base, I will give it a try on the next.

Sal
 
Charlie,

thanks for the info. I ended up sanding off the waxed shellac and recoated with dewaxed. For this project, I will finish with solvent laquer; but given your comments on the water base, I will give it a try on the next.

Sal

well sal i stand corrected,, got some info from a better finisher than me and charlie is right on the burn in factor in regards to water base,, i dont use water base anything,, solvent base would work as i earlier stated.. have done it many times.. but will rethink my methods if i get back into poly for a final finish,, and if i have to go to water base for what ever reason.. so just for the records,, dewaxed does burn in and can allow for some wax to be there yet to possibly cause trouble on final finish..but solvent based poly and lacquers will work over waxed shellac..
 
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