"Rant" I just don't understand

Chuck Thoits

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Ok from the top we bid a kitchen at the start it was to be built from scratch. Ya know a nice custom job. Well in the design proses the owner finds a "custom kitchen" company and well that ended the build. So this past week we did the install. Here is the proof. :thumb:
Pic one the hardware
pic 2 the basic box don't worry no fasteners where harmed in the gluing of this box
pic 3 the back corner of the box
pic 4 the front corner
pic 5 the second cabinet yes that is a gap in the floor they couldn't be bothered to say like datto the bottoms in or any thing.
Oh and this box was a good 1/4" out of square when we got it but ta least the glue they use to hold it to gather is weak a copula of good smacks with the hammer and it fell apart so we could fix it.
Pic 6 they are big on up selling the dove tail boxes
pic 7 1 and 2 installed.
Pic 8 the rest of the boxes
pic 9 the rest of the kitchen installed. Notice the bow in the sink base. I guess we count on the counter top to support that.
This batch of cabinets has under cab lights been that way from the start. So how do we go about that well in this shop they send you a bottom rail to be feild installed to cover the lights. I guess when you have made to order cabinets you can expect them to be ready for the lights that they sold you.
pic 10 the oven cabinet
Now take a look at pic 9 right side cabinets they have finished panel ends. This fine custom shop has decided that finished ends will be a panel applied to the box so you have this nice line next to your door on your frame less full over lay doors.
In the last pic you can see the nice flat plywood frig cab. One would have thought that it would be a panel on the exposed part but well that's not how we do it is the answer we got and to apply one here would look funny with the extra line.
 

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The words come to mind like. Ignorance & expensively...cheap. Or STUPID!!!

About 1972 my Dad was superintending a deluxe up scale apt/condo complex with all the goodies pool, cabana, fireplaces & all the nice things like air conditioning fancy tile, top quality carpet etc. The people above my Dad had chosen a cabinet maker to build the cabinets. On the day he was to bring in an example of his work my Dad's partner an architect the banker & other higher ups were there to see the fabulous bathroom cabinet.... let me add here that I was working there at the time spring vacation from college as a laborer. Well the cabinet didn't fit wasn't square & hung out in the doorway so the bath door wouldn't open or close. Everyone above Dad basically said you couldn't give it to me, Dad said oh I'd take it, they all looked at him kinda funny & he said I have a fireplace. Then he turned to me & said get this out of here. I took it to balcony & dropped it off it hit the ground & exploded into bunch of pieces. The architect said my Dad had built his house & all the cabinets in it & that they were top quality... guess who was working evenings & weekends for a while. Dad his foreman & me as a go-fore.
 
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I can appreciate the rant having to work with that stuff and try to make it come out decent. This is the same level of quality that "cabinetmakers" have built and installed all over the country. It is a testament to the difference that people hold in the definition of quality. I framed in a sort of tilted wall for a lumber rack in my dad's garage. The quality of the framing on that wall (remembering that I don't do this for a living) exceeds anything that you might find elsewhere in his home. Just an example of differing definitions of quality; what I found "acceptable" for a lumber rack was much better than what the framing crew found "excellent" for the house they built. Whadda ya gonna do?
 
overlay doors? should they be over the out side edge so you dont see the 3/4" ply staring at you.. just door covering it all up..???

The doors do cover up the box. There idea of a finished end cabinet is to slap a panel on it. That's the 3/4" you are seeing looks real sleek and finished does it not.:thud:
One might think if one was to order a cabinet with a finished end that the panel would be built right into the box. Ok so that's how I would expect a custom shop to do the job. If I wanted to see wood past my doors I would not have ordered full overlay doors.:doh::doh:
 
I'll play the devil's advocate here. The only thing I see wrong is that they didn't use dado's for the joints on the cabinets. We cut ours out on a cnc router and when they come off the router every dado, shelf pin hole, drawer slide mounting hole and the holes for the hinge plates are complete. Just needs to be run thru the edge bander and then assembled with glue, 15 ga. 2" nails and then screwed with 1-1/2" screws.

To me the applied end panels give the cabinets a clean look from the sides and all of your gaps and reveals are seen from the front. At the custom shop I work at we typicaly make them deeper so that they can be scribed to the wall after install and brought flush with the front of the doors as they are meant to be.

The next thing I see is no fillers or scribes depending on what you want to call them between the cabinets and the walls. We always allow a minimum of 1" in case the wall isn't plumb or the side walls aren't square to the back wall.

As for the light rail we also send a loose strip that is applied after the cabinets and end panels are installed. The difference between ours and the ones you did is that we have the doors extend 2" down past the bottom of the cabinets so the light valance is behind the doors.

You need to remember the people buying this more than likely don't care how it's made as long as the finished product gives them the look they want. I seem to remember a member of this forum telling me this and it's so very true.
 
Sorry to hear of your experience Chuck but i am gonna say you only got yourself to blame. If the customer was in your hands and you did not educate them as to what you could do and why it would be better etc then you lost out to someone who did.
You have more than enough pics of all the bad experiences you have had to contend with and you have pics of what you can do. It takes more than a quote to get a deal.

I get real upset when i see this kind of thing happen to guys like you. You deserve the job and i say that simply on having seen pics of how you do things. But the customer is obviously not seeing that a guy that built and framed their home can do a custom kitchen.

People have been groomed to believe a builder builds a home and a custom kitchen cabinet place does custom kitchens.

You need to have marketing materials that show your business in one case as a custom builder and in another case as a custom cabinet shop.

YOu need to show why they should be looking for what you expect to see and why they should be doing business with you. People need to be sold or they gonna buy from the guy that does.

Man my heart goes out to you having to install others work you know you could do better. Now if you tell the customer it will seem like nothing but sour grapes cause you did not get the job.

You gotta bridge the gap for the customer so they see you in the two roles or even more if thats appropriate. Education education education. You gotta sell yourself.
 
I'll play the devil's advocate here. The only thing I see wrong is that they didn't use dado's for the joints on the cabinets. We cut ours out on a cnc router and when they come off the router every dado, shelf pin hole, drawer slide mounting hole and the holes for the hinge plates are complete. Just needs to be run thru the edge bander and then assembled with glue, 15 ga. 2" nails and then screwed with 1-1/2" screws.

To me the applied end panels give the cabinets a clean look from the sides and all of your gaps and reveals are seen from the front. At the custom shop I work at we typicaly make them deeper so that they can be scribed to the wall after install and brought flush with the front of the doors as they are meant to be.

The next thing I see is no fillers or scribes depending on what you want to call them between the cabinets and the walls. We always allow a minimum of 1" in case the wall isn't plumb or the side walls aren't square to the back wall.

As for the light rail we also send a loose strip that is applied after the cabinets and end panels are installed. The difference between ours and the ones you did is that we have the doors extend 2" down past the bottom of the cabinets so the light valance is behind the doors.

You need to remember the people buying this more than likely don't care how it's made as long as the finished product gives them the look they want. I seem to remember a member of this forum telling me this and it's so very true.

then assembled with glue, 15 ga. 2" nails and then screwed with 1-1/2" screws. For these you have to stop at the glue

To me the applied end panels give the cabinets a clean look from the sides and all of your gaps and reveals are seen from the front. At the custom shop I work at we typicaly make them deeper so that they can be scribed to the wall after install and brought flush with the front of the doors as they are meant to be. The end panles would give it
With the full face frame doors you have a door a gap a door a gap and a 3/4" panel very un symmetrical where as if the panle was the side of the box it would go door gap door

As for the light rail we also send a loose strip that is applied after the cabinets and end panels are installed. The difference between ours and the ones you did is that we have the doors extend 2" down past the bottom of the cabinets so the light valance is behind the doors.
Seems like a much better way for this to be done

You need to remember the people buying this more than likely don't care how it's made as long as the finished product gives them the look they want. I seem to remember a member of this forum telling me this and it's so very true.
Again very true

Pm me what kind of cabinets your shop makes. And how do I get them
 
chuck, I ordered my kitchen from a well known higher end cabinet maker, and the end panels are attached to the cabinet side. The edges are rounded over and it kind of blends into the front where the door edge begins.
 
chuck, I ordered my kitchen from a well known higher end cabinet maker, and the end panels are attached to the cabinet side. The edges are rounded over and it kind of blends into the front where the door edge begins.

Yes Allen that is industry standard. That way all the boxes can be run in a production line manner no real thought just make another 34 inch drawer base. It's pretty much the same from the dirt cheap to the very high end. How ever if I'm passing my self off as custom to me that means taking the extra step to make a product that stands above the rest. :thumb: Not, Well it is custom we took our mill run box and added trim to it.:thumb:
 
Here is an interesting thing. Today we got a set of cabinets from Canada. Not custom just plan old cabinets. They cost 1/4 the price of the customs that started this thread. Now the end cabinets on the island have the end finish panel is actuality the side of the cabinet. Funny they took the time to make a special end cabinet and even extended it to cover the 2x wall behind it. No where in the kitchen is or was a filler strip used. Instead they took the dimensions of the room figured the cabinets. Then made the first and last cabinets in the run with an over sized rail to be trimmed to size and for plumb in case the wall was out. Just blows my mind these low cost cabinets out of Canada have features that we can't seem to get on our high end custom stuff around here.
Now we have to take a look at the bad They used piratical board for the sides on each box.:doh:
Back is ply bottom ply strips for top ply and shelves ply.:thumb:
Oh and yes they used real metal fasteners to hold the boxes together along with glue:thumb:
I'm sure it was just an accident but the hickory was even matched up to some extent.
 
That sounds like our shop Chuck. Every job is field measured and the cabinets are sized to fit the space available. We don't have any stock size cabinets. Our face frame cabinets have the fillers (scribes) built into the cabinet.

The finished ends on the face frame cabinets are done with 1/4" ply of the appropriate species of wood and are attached with contact cement. The face frames are attached so they over hang the side of the cabinet by the thickness of the applied skin. If it's a paneled end then it's attached before finishing.

Only our Euro cabinets have separate fillers/scribes and they are all the same size for the whole job. Applied end panels are made to fit what ever is called for and the cabinets are sized to fit the space minus what ever we spec for a filler/ scribe.
 
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