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Thread: thoughts from some of the pros here, what do you think of my idea

  1. #1
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    thoughts from some of the pros here, what do you think of my idea

    as mentioned, Im going to attempt to upgrade my sons kitchen.
    the area with the sink and stove, microwave, will be my first job, whenever I finish it, I will make a few cabinets for the bare wall on the other side of his kitchen. He doesnt have room for an island, so we are going to take out a piece of wall between the dining room and kitchen, and put in a counter at stool level, to open up the area, and Ill put some cabs underneath to give it an island type of feel/design. Nothing fancy, straight box like cabs with raised panels doors, no corbels,(if thats what they are called) posts, nada.......just neat and clean, something I feel I can accomplish.

    -he has oak cabinets. the doors are completely shot, scratched up, destroyed. this is what 400 thousand dollars buys you in a house on Long island, and he got a steal on this house, most homes in his nabe same size go for above 500, so he was lucky. for me, its incredible what crapola you get on long island for half a million. his home is a nice size though, just not a big enough garage and yard that would make me happy, but he loves it, its 2 minutes from his work, and he has great neighbors in a decent area. his taxes run around 9000 a year after a reduction he received.
    he doesnt have money put in a kitchen yet, and it doesnt seem anytime soon. He did purchase a new stove and microwave, and is going to install a dishwasher before I do the bottoms. just wanted to fill you in. I figured worst case scenario, I mess things up he has to purchase a cheapo small kitchen cab set, or just sand down what he has and Ill make him some oak doors, and leave things as they are until he can afford a new kitchen.,\
    in comes me, and Ill attempt to make him a kitchen out of cherry, the same style doors I made for his pantry.

    my question-we discussed sanding down(scuff sand) the frames, and applying cherry veneer to the current cabs, since the cabs themselves are fine, then Id make doors.
    My idea, lose 3/4 of an inch, and instead of worrying about veneer peeling or not applying it correctly, Id just build new face frames, the cost would be minimal, and attach them directly on the current face frames, a few trim screws through the old face frame into the new, wont be seen.
    this way, no veneer problems in the future, and no extra cost since the cost of the cherry lumber for frames would run me about the same and Im alot more comfortable with using real lumber than veneer onto oak cabs.
    is this a good idea? Id prefer not to rip out the old cabs, simply because it would be alot more work, another expense, and who knows what problems we will encounter once I rip out the old cabs and make new ones. a fraction of an inch off, there will be problems. and I know I will create problems. will my idea look ok? please consider, Im limited in my knowledge of this stuff, installation is difficult for me, and I have to travel with tools to do installation, and Im trying to avoid alot of this, not wanting to put a huge expense on myself in case it doesnt work out.
    Human Test Dummy

  2. #2
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    Sounds like you have a good plan. I love Cherry, but our friends have a cherry kitchen, and the beauty of Cherry has been lost over the years. I am not sure I would pay the premium for cherry for a kitchen having seen that kitchen over the last 10 or so years - it still is nice, but is no longer special.

    Personally I VERY strongly prefer euro style cabinets. Therefore if you are going to take the face frame off, I would consider replacing it with a veneer, or perhaps a thin wood strip (a pin nailer and glue should allow you to easily replace it). Then you can use the Euro hinges everyone loves, the way they were designed to be used (attached to the inside of the cabinet). Your doors have to be slightly larger, but that is not an issue since you will be replacing them anyway. And you gain another 1 1/2 inches of useful cabinet at every opening.
    Charlie Plesums, Austin Texas
    (Retired early to become a custom furnituremaker)
    Lots of my free advice at www.solowoodworker.com

  3. #3
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    Kind of what Charlie said, but with a bit of a twist. I'd remove the face frames - they're likey just nailed on - and replace them with 'edge banding' that's the same thickness as the face frames were - probably ". Then you can use the Euro hardware and build new doors.

    Another alternative would be to just remove the face frames and build new ones, then build 'conventional' doors and re-use the old hardware.

    Too bad you're not local to here. We have a surplus outlet here that sells Oak or Birch doors, in nearly any size imagineable, for ten bucks a door. For upper cabinet doors, you can't even buy the wood for ten bucks.

    I don't think I'd want to mess with the veneering. Every veneered kitchen I've ever seen developed problems - either bubbles under the veneer, or it peeled. Cooking heat, steam, and grease are not kind to the veneers or the glues used, I guess.

    For quick doors, you could use solid " rails and stiles and a simple " plywood panel. You could knock those out on your tablesaw pretty quickly, and with a nice finish they'd look clean, simple, and elegant. Oak ply ain't all that expensive, and two sheets would probably make the panels for the whole kitchen.
    Jim D.
    Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!

  4. #4
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    I committed myself to cherry, having made the off the kitchen pantry doors out of cherry.
    Im going to use either blum or salice 1/2 inch overlay, the hinges wont be seen.
    I thought about taking off the faceframe, but when I had to remove the faceframe off the above the stove(microwave cabinet, it was a chore, and took a piece of cabinet with it. I believe the face frames were glued on then nailed. Id prefer not to damage any of the cabinets, and to be honest, I like the look of overlay doors with faceframes in a kitchen. for me, inset doors in a kitchen, make it look too commercial, hard to explain. just a matter of taste. not any harder, just the different look.
    when I get there, Im going to examine some other face frames and see if they can be removed easily enough without damaging anything.thats probably a better idea, i just looked for easiest.

    jim, the old hardware is a reason we want to replace the doors. they are simple ugly exposed hinges. 40 y/o simple hinges. the doors have magnets inside to catch close. the handles match the hinges, and half of them are broken, dont know how a metal handle breaks. it was probably installed very cheaply, and they used the cheapest they could find. its not a ton of doors, so at 4 bucks a handle, it wont be a disaster.
    Last edited by allen levine; 03-27-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    Human Test Dummy

  5. #5
    Sounds Like a plan to me! We use this blum mounting plate on our face frame cabinets.
    http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges...Frame+CabinetsWe use the 3mm plate with the full overlay hinge which gives us a 1/2" overlay. The reasoning behind it is if the door is a bit too wide we can substitute a 0 mm plate or if the gap between doors is to large we can install a 6mm base plate.

    You can try removing the face frames but could be opening up a can of worms by doing that. With out seeing the cabinets and how they are constructed or fastened to the wall it's hard to say what way would be better.

    Can the uppers be taken down and take them back to your shop to work on them? Maybe make the cabinets for the side with none first so he has something to use while this is going on?
    Last edited by allen levine; 03-28-2012 at 02:13 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DeLaney View Post

    Too bad you're not local to here. We have a surplus outlet here that sells Oak or Birch doors, in nearly any size imagineable, for ten bucks a door. For upper cabinet doors, you can't even buy the wood for ten bucks.
    Jim - would you be willing to share some information about this outlet with some FWW members?

    I need 2 doors for an over the fridge cabinet I shortened. I reached out the the cabinet mfg. and they nolonger produce cabinets with our finish and won't sell unfinished doors to met. I got the cabinet back in place last month after a 14 month delay due to personal sloth and now need to come up with some doors. The original doors are raised panel and cutting them down is not feasible.

    Any hint's would be appreciated . . .

    Cheers

    Jim Mattheiss
    Last edited by Jim Mattheiss; 03-28-2012 at 12:05 AM. Reason: fixed quote from jim d

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Bienlein View Post
    Sounds Like a plan to me! We use this blum mounting plate on our face frame cabinets.
    http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges...Frame+CabinetsWe use the 3mm plate with the full overlay hinge which gives us a 1/2" overlay. The reasoning behind it is if the door is a bit too wide we can substitute a 0 mm plate or if the gap between doors is to large we can install a 6mm base plate.

    You can try removing the face frames but could be opening up a can of worms by doing that. With out seeing the cabinets and how they are constructed or fastened to the wall it's hard to say what way would be better.

    Can the uppers be taken down and take them back to your shop to work on them? Maybe make the cabinets for the side with none first so he has something to use while this is going on?
    didnt edit your post, just hit the wrong button......Id prefer not to take the cabinets out, that is a chore for me.
    we thought about doing the blank side first, but Id rather see how the existing area will look as it will be a minimal investment, and Id only do a few faceframes and doors at a time.
    He hasnt installed the electrical outlet for the microwave. when he does that, I think Ill start on that cabinet and work my way towards the sink, do these now. Im workingon my upstairs currently, but Id take a small break to see how his kitchen might look. Im just waiting on him to get the microwave up.
    Human Test Dummy

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mattheiss View Post
    Jim - would you be willing to share some information about this outlet with some FWW members?

    I need 2 doors for an over the fridge cabinet I shortened. I reached out the the cabinet mfg. and they nolonger produce cabinets with our finish and won't sell unfinished doors to met. ...
    Well, the place is called "Star Bargain Outlet" on Mahoning Avenue in Youngstown, Ohio. So far as I know, they're strictly local, and don't ship stuff out. They're a great place to browse, though, and I go there often. They seldom have the same things for sale more than once, and the selections are eclectic to say the least.
    Jim D.
    Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!

  9. #9
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    jim M, make some new ones to the size you need or have one of the members here do it for you..
    If in Doubt, Build it Stout!
    One hand washes the other!
    Don't put off today till tomorrow!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DeLaney View Post
    Well, the place is called "Star Bargain Outlet" on Mahoning Avenue in Youngstown, Ohio. So far as I know, they're strictly local, and don't ship stuff out. They're a great place to browse, though, and I go there often. They seldom have the same things for sale more than once, and the selections are eclectic to say the least.
    Thanks Jim. I'am from Cleveland thanks for posting up the link. Some what the same kind of place in Warren off SR 422. Called Clarkys closeouts. www.clarkyscloseouts.com Should be close to you also.
    "Its only by minute attention to every detail that you will achieve perfection"

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