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Absolutely unbelievable....

Robert and John,

I respectfully disagree. While not the ultimate old timer around here I do know something about the "history" of some of the emotions around posts related to Griz products specifically. The link is to the original post at SMC and that post had nothing to do with patent infringement or any of the protectionist rant that has followed. How this can be twisted into it's current form is beyond me...
 
Chris
Given that Paul posted it here, and he's the one that brought up the point of patent infringement
I have to respectfully agree to disagree with your disagreement :huh: I think :D

My take on it that Paul was pointing out the patent infringement, not the comparing of machines
 
Well, sure, you can spin his motives into all sorts of stuff, but it remains speculation, nothing more. There are lots of reasons why he could have brought it up here, try asking him directly why he wants to discuss it here as well as SMC, or cut him a little slack, your call.

Granted though, I've not been following this subject in great detail, not having a strong feeling either way. Most of my machinery is older than I am, and I tend to base my purchasing decisions on whether the tool strikes me as sexy rather than any sort of rational criteria.
 
Assuming (and that's a big assumption) that Griz/Jet/whoever has, in copying a design (or cloning a machine outright), actually infringed one of MM/Felder/Hammer's patents, one of two things is true:
1. the patent holders are unaware of it (which I find unlikely in the extreme) or
2. the patent holders have recognized that the losses to their target market (if any) are far less than the cost of prosecuting an infringement suit.

I suspect the answer is "none of the above": it seems more likely that the patentable aspects of these machines are decades old and the patents have long since expired.
 
Robert Mickley: "Theres only so many ways to build a tablesaw, bandsaw or any other woodworking tool."

[size=+1]You're Right! You don't have to go offshore for cloning. For example, - here in North America - do you think that between Delta, Powermatic, and General, somebody didn't take a good hard look at, and essentially copy, the other's cabinet saw? They're all very similar under their hoods - especially now that Delta makes a left-tilt Unisaw. It's just become the normal situation in business - pretty much any business...[/size]
 
Jim DeLaney said:
You're Right! You don't have to go offshore for cloning. For example, - here in North America -
Click to expand...

Elsewhere, look at the PC industry. The world would be a much different place today had others not reverse engineered IBM's BIOS and Intel's microprocessor to create what used to be called IBM clones. (And I'm typing this on an actual IBM laptop which is the WORST computer I've ever had--can't wait to get my new Dell later this week.)
 
Maybe I am the only one that understands what I was and am trying to say....would not be the first time and will not be the last.

I saw that post about asking for input on the Grizzly j/p a long time ago and I had nothing to add to it and really could care less. In my opinion that machine had an ever close striking resemblance to a MM FS30 but....whatever...

I got involved only when the PRESIDENT OF GRIZZLY openly stated that he took apart a MM machine and could say his machine was of the same quality. Did he outright say he copied every little piece? no he did not but one can sure read between the lines. When I stated my feelings on it I was insulted, called niave, illogical and otherwise told that I just don't get it that "everyone does it" When I did reply the PRESIDENT OF GRIZZLY added he had no only taken apart the MM but other machines as well.

Sorry folks and I could care less what you feel or think but I feel that is completely wrong and unethical. I do no care one iota what "is done all the time". These new machines are not advancing woodworking machinery as others have eluded to, they are not helping out mankind, the only thing they are doing is increasing the market share for Grizzly and making them more profits, period. If you want to believe they are doing this to help you out, boy do I have a bridge I could sell you too.

I do not mean to sound like an arrogant fool but I feel passionate about this issue. I believe that this is just a small microcosm in the grand scheme of how we as a society are allowing copying, stealing, plagerism, etc... but then hiding it under the cover of innovation. This company is not innovating anything, they are not advancing society, they are simply producing something cheaper but using cheaper materials and building that product in an environment that has cheaper labor.

I was appauled at how many people basically said "oh well it happens everyday" and I can not wait to see that machine. That kind of mentality drums up images of a pool of pirannas in a feeding freenzy. Call me clueless call me idealistic but the fact of the matter is "just because it is done" does not make it right. I would hope that as the "higher intelligent" beings we consider ourselves to be that we are able to also hold ourselves to a higher ethical standard. Am I looking for your approval? No I am not. Why did I post this here? because I was interested in finding if there were others that felt the same way I did.
 
Paul

I understand what you are saying.. I just dont agree with you :rolleyes:

What the other extreme.. you lock your design team up in a sealed workshop and tell them to design a saw....? How do you know if yours is better or worse than the competition if you dont compare your own product. What if your design team doesn't think of putting a riving knife in there? Should you NOT apply a good idea that you come across, just because someone else thought of it. Patent laws should apply of course. If there is a current patent on that idea you can either licence it for you machine, invent a different way of achieving the same thing, or do without that feature.

I think the other option applied in East Germany, they built Traubant cars in a factory, and thats all they built. There was no need to look at other vehicles on the market (there were no others). Traubants were horrible cars, there were plenty of ideas that could have improved them if they had taken a VW or Toyota apart and applied the ideas they saw. Wouldn't even had to have broken any patent rules.

Also imagine YOU wanted to build an airplane, to sell. Would you start out in a shed like the Wright brothers? I dont think so. Best bet would be to go to University and study aero engineering. What does that consist of? Looking at / taking apart airplanes and learning how they work :huh:

The subject of patent infingement or overseas manufacturing are different subjects. But comparing your product to existing / competing products is just common sense.

Copying others and learning based on previous knowledge IS what got technology to where we are now. When caveman Zug started banging the ole rocks together way back when, you can bet his mate Gug came over to see what he was doing. Lucky he didn't say "ohhh, Zug has invented sharp stones.. I better not make one of my own and mount it on the end of my stick".

Cheers

Ian
 
Just want to make something very clear here, opinions of each member are their own, and they do not, in any way reflect any "Official" stance on behalf of Familywoodworking.org

Thank you.
 
i`m sure folks have noticed that i`ve been unusually quiet during this exchange:rolleyes: ...........well tod the member has only a few words to add,
there`s engineering, there`s reverse engeneering and there`s "value" engineering........think about it......ethics and morals aside...tod
 
Howdy Paul,

One thing to consider is that in engineering the standards of immitational ethics could be a bit looser because there are only so many practical ways to solve an engineering problem. Though Griz builds overseas, they sell in the US, Canada, and presumably Europe and anywhere else in the world that there is a demand for their products. I'd imagine that Minimax, Felder, or whoever they may have immitated has also inspected Griz's products, and would pursue legal action in one or all of the countries where these things are sold if they felt there were a patent infringement.

As far as the ideology, I agree with you 100%. Griz's executives and engineers want to make money, but only they can judge their own ultimate intellectual honesty. I may judge my own by standards different than their's - which probably has something to do with my signature line. Do I respect their company or methods? No, not really. Would I buy their products in spite of this? I might if I were trying to make a profit from my efforts - still wouldn't like it much though.
 
Paul

I'll tell you what doesn't happen every day for a lot of us.

We don't get a great big fat check to buy new American made iron or any other high dollar iron.

Just to clear the air don't think for a minute that all the other manufactures even the big high dollar manufactures don't take apart other manufactures machines they probably even take apart Grizzly machines to check them out just to see if they have found a way to make even one small improvement.

I have a few older machines but they are not always available here where I live. Grizzly in Bellingham is about 45 minutes away where I can get what I need a price I can afford.

We have caused this to happen to ourselves with such things a unions high pay packages & fantastic benefits. The government has helped things along with various programs that I either don't know about or can't remember. Plus the fact that along with high pay & other great benefits we like low low prices on the things we purchase.

Can you spell Wal Mart?

I don't necessarily seek out the lowest prices on everything I purchase but I do have to live within my income just like everyone else.


I don't mean in any way for this to come across in an unfriendly manner this is just the way it is all over the world we don't have to like it but unless we are extremely extremely extremely rich we really don't have much if any input unless we could all vote with our wallets at the same time & knowing human nature you know that just ain't going to happen.
Well in a way it does because we vote for low prices but then there are a lot of people out ther that can't pay high prices.:) :wave:
 
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I don't get it,,,,, isn't there enough stuff going on on this forum without dragging someone's else trash over here?

I can see bringing over a topic if it benefits the forum, but this doesn't.
 
You've got my vote Paul. I won't name company but my feelings are clearly stated on the other forum. I left there because of their reaction.

DT
 
Wow Frank, that's surprising.

But General sells down here, I guess we're getting the better end of the deal! :D :D :D
My bandsaw is the only new machine I've ever gotten excited about.
 
Bart Leetch said:
Well in a way it does because we vote for low prices but then there are a lot of people out ther that can't pay high prices.:) :wave:
Click to expand...
What about buying used? It's easy to come up with excuses why you should buy imports, we all do because they're all over in the sales channels. Because I care where a product is made and the quality of it more so, obviously puts me in the minority.

I can get much better quality used equipment than they can offer me new, and I can get it much cheaper as well.:doh:
 
Chuck Hanger said:
Bart hit the nail directly on the head. We have priced ourselves out of the manufacturing market with our demand for higher wages. Sorry fact, but the truth.
Chuck
Click to expand...


I don't think so unless you are talking CEO's. In Europe and Canada workers make more than in the US.

And on average have better health care benefits. So I think you have to look a lot farther than hourly wages for the demise of US manufacturing.


As far as Griz selling in Canada as I understood it his brother sold in Canada under the Busy Bee Label.


Garry
 
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