Menu
What's new

Absolutely unbelievable....

We allow ourselves to be outsourced. China's currency has been locked to the US, and Europe has not been very open to allowing outsourcing.

Do I agree with Paul? Yes and no. Patents are in place for a reason, and they do expire after a period of time. Williams and Hussey's molder being replicated by Shopfox is an example of that I believe. I worry that W&H may not last long since the Shopfox is so much cheaper.

BTW, I am enjoying and find this interesting, not controversial or antagonistic.
 
Garry Foster said:
...
As far as Griz selling in Canada as I understood it his brother sold in Canada under the Busy Bee Label.


Garry
Click to expand...
It is true that the owner of Grizzly in the USA is the brother of the owner of Busy Bee in Canada and also true that they seem to have some agreement to stick to each other's territories.

And, Busy Bee is actually the older company.

Busy Bee's house brand is called Craftex and, it too, is made somewhere in China and/or Taiwan. The Craftex line is not nearly as extensive as the Grizzly line and, as far as I have observed, there does not appear to be the avid following for Craftex in Canada that there is for Grizzly in the USA. Most people that I know, do not hold Craftex in high regard.
 
Garry Foster said:
I don't think so unless you are talking CEO's. In Europe and Canada workers make more than in the US.

And on average have better health care benefits.
Click to expand...

Err, can you back this up? First I've heard this.

I think it depends on what you do, and what part of the country. In the IT field (which I'm familiar with) I think the wages are better in most major US cities than in Canada.
 
Garry Foster said:
I don't think so unless you are talking CEO's. In Europe and Canada workers make more than in the US.

And on average have better health care benefits. So I think you have to look a lot farther than hourly wages for the demise of US manufacturing.


As far as Griz selling in Canada as I understood it his brother sold in Canada under the Busy Bee Label.


Garry
Click to expand...

You are very right Gary, but companys are not moving from the U.S. to Europe and Canada. They are moving to Mexico and China where labor is cheap. You do have to look beyond just the wages. Availability of skilled as well as unskilled workers, etc.
The first week of December 2006 they announced that the plant where my wife has worked for 19 years will be closing and moving the operations to both Mexico and China. The company is a major electronics manufacturer world wide. Their explanation was short and simple. They could make a more quality product for 1/2 the cost in China. I certainly do not know if that is accurate, but that is still what they claim.
I will back on out of this topic, but still must point out that at times in the past 2 or 3 years the Canadian dollar has only been worth $.68 in the U.S.
Thanks for looking,
Chuck
 
spoken like a true union sheepl. if this countries union work force would have opened their eyes and closed their hands a little more the US and would still have many of the manufacturing plants that have gone overseas. I've been a union member for 30 years and am disgusted at the work ethic of many of my fellow union members. I'm sure I'll get beat up on this but I'm just stateing what I have observed. That same "oh well" attitude you mentioned has helped put this countries working class in a bad place. 8 hours work for 8 hours pay!!!!!
 
Last edited:
Alan DuBoff said:
What about buying used? It's easy to come up with excuses why you should buy imports, we all do because they're all over in the sales channels. Because I care where a product is made and the quality of it more so, obviously puts me in the minority.

I can get much better quality used equipment than they can offer me new, and I can get it much cheaper as well.:doh:
Click to expand...

I have a few older machines but they are not always available here where I live. Grizzly in Bellingham is about 45 minutes away where I can get what I need a price I can afford

Allen you need to go back & read the whole post again.

Also when they are available sometime I am not available or do not see the advertisement in time or the person may want more for it then I am willing to pay.
I am about even in the American made verses foreign made tools.
If you don't count hand held tools electric tools & they probably almost balance out with all the old hand tools. So I have tried my best.
 
Last edited:
Ian Abraham said:
Paul

I understand what you are saying.. I just dont agree with you :rolleyes:

What the other extreme.. you lock your design team up in a sealed workshop and tell them to design a saw....? How do you know if yours is better or worse than the competition if you dont compare your own product. What if your design team doesn't think of putting a riving knife in there? Should you NOT apply a good idea that you come across, just because someone else thought of it. Patent laws should apply of course. If there is a current patent on that idea you can either licence it for you machine, invent a different way of achieving the same thing, or do without that feature.

I think the other option applied in East Germany, they built Traubant cars in a factory, and thats all they built. There was no need to look at other vehicles on the market (there were no others). Traubants were horrible cars, there were plenty of ideas that could have improved them if they had taken a VW or Toyota apart and applied the ideas they saw. Wouldn't even had to have broken any patent rules.

Also imagine YOU wanted to build an airplane, to sell. Would you start out in a shed like the Wright brothers? I dont think so. Best bet would be to go to University and study aero engineering. What does that consist of? Looking at / taking apart airplanes and learning how they work :huh:

The subject of patent infingement or overseas manufacturing are different subjects. But comparing your product to existing / competing products is just common sense.

Copying others and learning based on previous knowledge IS what got technology to where we are now. When caveman Zug started banging the ole rocks together way back when, you can bet his mate Gug came over to see what he was doing. Lucky he didn't say "ohhh, Zug has invented sharp stones.. I better not make one of my own and mount it on the end of my stick".

Cheers

Ian
Click to expand...

well said Ian ! "caveman" ? where do Adam & eve Fit into this mess we've made. i guess thats another issue :rofl: ry"
 
Patent law benifit only large companies. It's extremely costly to get a patent. If you have a patent you have to defend it or your don't have a patent. Whoever has the biggert lawyers wins. In North America large corporations generally do not invent or innovate.

Labor costs are only one factor in the demise of North American manufacturing. Lack of innovation or even product improvment is a bigger factor. Not reinvesting in equiptment and facilities is an even bigger factor.

I started buying woodworking equiptment in the 70's. At that time Delta was the only game in town. Prices where high, 14" band saw 1700 dollars. I had to use a hammer to reform sheet metal parts to install them. Casting were so green they moved daily. The thing rattled and shook like a bowel of jelly. TOTAL junk!

Unisaw designed in the early 30's... in 1970 tops would be out by fractions of inches rather then thousands, green castings moving daily. To set the fence on these lemons one would get it close lock it and then hammer it into exact position. They didn't even have a cheap ruler scale on them. No riving knife, (still no riving knife). TOTAL junk.

This was all made in the USA and Canada. To this day I don't buy Delta and I probably never will.

In general I agree with Paul. However I'm more disturbed by Shiraz Balolia's words then the fact they torn down MM planer. He said "My answer was based on having taken the 12" MM apart and seen the insides of the MM 12"" Where is the content?! He claims his machine is better but provides not reason other than having seen another machine. Good grief. In what way is it better or even as good?!

That's not the first time. He did the same thing in a thread on format sliders at SMC. I called him on that thread to provide some actual measurable or technical reason why is product was as good or better then a competetors and got no response. I assume that if he had anything he would share it before I asked.
 
interesting...

....very interesting. In all of these discussions, in the OFF TOPIC area, I am glad we have had such varying responses. I agree that learning from the past helps us move forward...but.... I feel there is a very fine line between learning and flat out copying here. Companies like Felder seem to have invented the combo (I think), Altendorf I believe invented the slider, SCM and Martin while I do not know if they are credited with "inventing" any machines in particular have been around forever and are continually "reinventing" woodworking machinery and technology. I can also continue with great American companies like Oliver, Whitney, Oakley, Yates American, Northfield but do not even whisper the name of Grizzly in the presence of these companies that would be a slap in the face for many engineers.

Fact is as of today, Grizzly (what this thread was about) is not introducing ground breaking technologies they are simply providing cheaper prices...I will let the individual decide if they are anywhere equal in quality. If you look at all of the great manufacturers I listed above one can say that they in theory do all the same thing...cut wood, sand, etc.... but they all achieve it very differently. Not one of them is similiar to the other in that they all look very different and all have their unique way of doing their thing. Can you say that any of those companies look a lot like that other one? not really. Did these companies take apart each others machines? I have no clue....but I do know the answer to the Grizzly question as stated by their President..... If you consider offering an identical "looking" machine at a bargain basement price innovating then so be it...but do not call it innovating to simply copy a machine
 
Greg Cook said:
can we say this thread has run it's course, and move on...?
Click to expand...

Common Greg, this poor horse still has a bit of flogging left in him, especially if we disregard the original question (on SMC) and insert our own biases and agendas :eek:

Mike... who wonders how this thread got so convoluted from the original question on a comparison of a combo machine made in China versus one made in Europe?:huh: :huh: :huh:
 
Come on guys, lets keep this going and see how many times Greg can post the dead horse! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, not to throw gas on a fire, but how many of your are using a windows operating system? Gee, let's see the Windows window has the close maximize minimize buttons on the right hand corner, the Mac has it on the left....... and Apple picked up the idea from, I think, Xerox's research center ...... they certainly didn't recognize what they had sitting in front of them.

So........... even tho I haven't read EVERY post in this thread I still don't get the basic problem, and frankly, I don't feel the need to subsidize any manufacturer if I can get the same utility at a lower price. Of course, my needs are certainly different than the pros here.

Jay
 
I am so sorry I have bothered you guys for a discussion.....I guess I should have not returned....now I know exactly where this country is headed. I thank you for patronizing me with your presense.
 
Paul B Cresti said:
I am so sorry I have bothered you guys for a discussion.....I guess I should have not returned....now I know exactly where this country is headed. I thank you for patronizing me with your presense.
Click to expand...



I'm sorry you did'nt get the responce you were looking for! Best of health to you and yours.
 
Paul B Cresti said:
I am so sorry I have bothered you guys for a discussion.....I guess I should have not returned....now I know exactly where this country is headed. I thank you for patronizing me with your presence.
Click to expand...


Well Paul, you brought the discussion over here from over there, you got 6 pages plus of discussion, some were on your side, some were not, some were in the middle.

Don't like the answers you get, might be the questions you are asking?

:dunno:

Cheers!:wave:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top