Gripe: Shoddy Turnings for Sale

Vaughn McMillan

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
36,054
Location
ABQ NM
I was in a local fast-food restaurant this past weekend, and on the counter there were three segmented vessels for sale. Initially, I was pretty jazzed at the thought of a place like this selling turned wood pieces. The excitement left the building as soon as I had a better look at the three pieces.

For starters, the form. There was none. All three pieces had a dumpy look, with nearly flat spots, uneven curves and absolutely nothing that flowed. Good form is like pornography...can't describe it, but I know it when I see it. I didn't see it in these pieces.

Next, the fit. While I do give the guy credit for tackling segmented turning, at the very least he could have made the joints line up and not have the occasional gap between segments. This was especially apparent looking into one of the pieces, where the square edges of some of the segments hadn't even been turned away.

Then there was the finish. Although the outsides of the pieces looked OK, I was appalled to see deep concentric 80 grit sanding scratches in the (flat) bottom of one of the wide-mouthed vessels. A hand could fit inside the piece, so in my opinion, there's no excuse for seeing visible sanding lines, especially coarse ones from the 80 grit gouge. And this was on a piece priced at $260. :rolleyes:

All in all, I was disappointed to see that this guy was selling shoddy work like this. The average consumer might get the mistaken impression that all woodturning is like this. As I see it, this guy was giving the rest of us turners a bad name.

I was tempted to take one of his business cards so I could call him and offer some lessons, but I figured that would be in poor taste. :D
 
Yikes! I think you will find high-end turnings at upscale restaurants (like the Pakistani restaurant we have been to).:rofl:

On a serious note, you are right about him giving the wrong impression. It is also possible that the turner had never seen a nicely made segmented piece up close.:dunno:
 
I know what you're talking about Vaughn. I consider myself more a hack than anything, but from this site I have seen some outstanding work. I've also been to a few shows that the work was top shelf. I think that looking at quality work should give you a point for comparison, it should give you an idea of something to strive for.

I guess over time if you're critical of your work your level of expectation will increase so maybe your work quality will increase. I've never made anything that I've been totally satisfied with, and I probably never will. I think that this striving for perfection though can drive you to a higher quality of work.

I've also been to a few shows that a lot of the work wasn't very good. The mill marks, open joints, terrible finishing, etc. was obvious. When I would point these things out to my wife most of the time she would say that she didn't notice it. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you don't have anything to compare, you don't know what bad work is.
 
Well, there have been studies (Dunning–Kruger effect) out there that have proved that incompetence is bliss.

Quite often the least skilled at a task rate themselves higher in proficiency than those who are skilled and know enough to know the difference.
 
Depending on which cap i am wearing i can see many sides to this issue. We have that saying frequently used that says beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we live in a so called free market.

My mom used to paint, when i saw here pictures i always thought they were "not quiet there" but it was not until i got to see her art at an exhibition of a bunch of her fellow peers in her art club that i could see where her level was.
There has also been so much of what i consider to be blatant junk traded as high class fine art at shock valuations that this guy could well be doing the same and making a mockery of the market willing to pay that sort of price.
But then who would buy a $260 priced bowl in a fast food joint.

Have to wonder if he sells any with work like that. Form or no form the finish you describe and gaps have got to leave one wondering. Does give you a good reference of just how worthy your own work is Vaughn. Some of your pieces i cannot get out of my thoughts i can manage to forget loads of things of much importance but i can close my eyes and see quiet a few of your magnificent pieces hope to one day be able to meet you and get to hold one in my hands;) Me thinks you underestimate your skill.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
 
My wife used to tell me that I would never sell anything I made. That I was to fussy about what I sold. One day we went to a craft fair and she was looking at some turnings. The guy next to her tried to tell her how good the turnings where. After a couple of minutes she couldn't help herself and she told the guy that she has seen better turnings than that tossed out. The guy says why would you say that. She starts out with bad sanding and tool marks and then talks about the finish. Myself I just kind of walked away laughing.
Dennis
 
Great story, Dennis. :) I remember how proud I was of my wife when she came back from a craft show complaining about the low quality of the turned things she saw. She was picking out the same issues...form, tearout, sanding, and finishing.
 
i couldn't agree more with you John, I've been woodworking off and on for 20 years and I've never been 100 percent happy with anything I've ever made either! I look at everything i make and think i could have done better! The more i learn, the more i realize i don't know :D As my skills have improved over the years, i find myself more critical when looking at other peoples work, but at the same time being more inspired to improve my own work and skill levels.
My wife says that I'm too hard on myself and that I'm a perfectionist, but i think that if you look at your work and think near enough is good enough, you have lost your passion for woodworking. :eek:
When i look at some of the things i made when i first started ( thinking at the time how clever i was !!) i see a lot of little mistakes and things that i would do different today. Looking at other "woodies" work is the best way, i think, to gauge where your skill levels are at ....
 
Well, to be the devil's advocate, at least they aren't sitting on the couch drinking from the welfare trough bemoaning the fact they don't have this or that because no one will give it to them. They are out there trying and putting their wares on display. Because some have higher talents, some of you have talent levels higher than I will ever achieve, should the rest of us hide or burn all of our work? Are we becoming wood working snobs? Entry level has its place and if someone loves the work enough to plunk down the cash, who are we to be upset. Maybe it is beginner work that will create a beginner buyer, they both will learn and advance throughout their lives. I say, "good job and congrats on putting your stuff out for others to critique and purchase if they like it".

This also might be our reason for the low participation in swap projects. Intimidation is as large as peer pressure. No matter what you say about the project you get, if you bemoan beginner work in the majority of your posts then who wants to subject their self or their work to this intense scrutiny in a swap? I am not picking on anyone, I am just looking at this from the "other side of the fence" so to speak.
 
Last edited:
Hi Jonathan , i read your post and i agree with you, we are all beginners at some stage and you have a point. i hope i didn't come across in the wrong way, but i guess what i was trying to say is, the best way to improve your own work is to compere it to others and take their ideas and knowledge and apply it to your next project.....

So any beginners out there reading this, be brave, put your work "out there" and be open to comments and suggestions from others
 
Vaughn,
I was recently in an artsyfartsy consignment gallery, not real high end, when I spied a squatty, 10 ring, 12 segment bowl for sale for $200. It was the exact size, shape and material as the practice bowl I turned in my segmented bowl class, but of even less quality than mine. The proprietor said they had sold several of these. My first thought was what an easy way to make a few bucks, but my pried got in my way. The things that I make that I am proud of, I sign, the others are used to hold nuts, bolts, nails and screws in the shop. It did, however, give me hope that I could sell some of my stuff some day, when I am willing to sell a product with my name on it.
 
jonathan makes a very valid point about intimidation. people are always a bit intimidated when they have to show their work as compared to work shown here and other sites.
as far as the guy selling cruddy turned products, so what?
noone is forcing anyone to buy them, and if the consumer buys one with its flaws, its their own fault for not knowing what a quality product is, or for being too cheap to pay a craftsman for a real piece as compared to the junk they pay for.
people hire inferior workmen all the time, plumbers, carpenters, etc............they just look at the price.
 
i couldn't agree more with you John, I've been woodworking off and on for 20 years and I've never been 100 percent happy with anything I've ever made either! I look at everything i make and think i could have done better! The more i learn, the more i realize i don't know :D As my skills have improved over the years, i find myself more critical when looking at other peoples work, but at the same time being more inspired to improve my own work and skill levels.
My wife says that I'm too hard on myself and that I'm a perfectionist, but i think that if you look at your work and think near enough is good enough, you have lost your passion for woodworking. :eek:
When i look at some of the things i made when i first started ( thinking at the time how clever i was !!) i see a lot of little mistakes and things that i would do different today. Looking at other "woodies" work is the best way, i think, to gauge where your skill levels are at ....

Bruce, I understand perfectly. Well, almost perfectly, as I could have understood better. Seriously, what you wrote fits me exactly. No matter how critical an eye I view the work of others, it is nothing compared to how I view my own. It is what drives my desire to improve.
 
I have seen a lot of work that there is no way I would put it out there with my name on it. I also agree with the fact that you have to start somewhere. I don't do craft fairs anymore because people will buy the $5 slimlines, $10 bowls that IMHO were so badly sanded, tool marks, tear out, etc that I wouldn't put my name on. The last craft fair I did 3 yrs ago I sold 2 vases and 2 bowls. All four told me that my turnings looked so much better than what the other 3 guys selling. So at least four looked for quality rather than price.
 
Well, to be the devil's advocate, at least they aren't sitting on the couch drinking from the welfare trough bemoaning the fact they don't have this or that because no one will give it to them. They are out there trying and putting their wares on display. Because some have higher talents, some of you have talent levels higher than I will ever achieve, should the rest of us hide or burn all of our work? Are we becoming wood working snobs? Entry level has its place and if someone loves the work enough to plunk down the cash, who are we to be upset. Maybe it is beginner work that will create a beginner buyer, they both will learn and advance throughout their lives. I say, "good job and congrats on putting your stuff out for others to critique and purchase if they like it".

This also might be our reason for the low participation in swap projects. Intimidation is as large as peer pressure. No matter what you say about the project you get, if you bemoan beginner work in the majority of your posts then who wants to subject their self or their work to this intense scrutiny in a swap? I am not picking on anyone, I am just looking at this from the "other side of the fence" so to speak.

A very good point, but we must be careful that we don't give out false praise just so everyone feels good about what they are doing. I think you can praise the effort while not praising the result, especially considering the level of experience. Sometimes you can't even praise the effort because knowing how long a person has been woodworking, you are amazed they trotted out their project for display. All of us never stop being beginners at some level. We hopefully continue to try new techniques or styles, stretching our comfort zone. I understand that and I hope I praise that effort no matter how long they have been woodworking. I do not consider myself to have much natural talent, but I am tenacious and will constantly redo something until I can not do better at that time. It may be harsh, but I will only praise a piece of work if I truly am impressed.
 
In psychology class I learned that at any given time, a person is the best possible for that moment. It might be the only thing I learned in that class. The turner may not know his work is shoddy by someone else's standards. And, much of the public won't know the difference either.
 
"Vaughn McMillan
Great story, Dennis. I remember how proud I was of my wife when she came back from a craft show complaining about the low quality of the turned things she saw. She was picking out the same issues...form, tearout, sanding, and finishing. "


I understand the feeling, my wife grew up in the city and when she talks about reins for saddle horses and lines for driving horses, I feel that she is understanding the whole concept. In my playing devil's advocate, I was not insinuating anything nor charging anyone with being unkind towards our newbie projects.


allen levine
"jonathan makes a very valid point about intimidation. people are always a bit intimidated when they have to show their work as compared to work shown here and other sites.
as far as the guy selling cruddy turned products, so what?
noone is forcing anyone to buy them, and if the consumer buys one with its flaws, its their own fault for not knowing what a quality product is, or for being too cheap to pay a craftsman for a real piece as compared to the junk they pay for.
people hire inferior workmen all the time, plumbers, carpenters, etc............they just look at the price. "

I was glad you agreed, then the complete paragraph almost makes it turn against me:eek::doh: But you do make a great point, should the government create a standard before it can be shown or sold? :huh::rolleyes:

Bill Satko
"A very good point, but we must be careful that we don't give out false praise just so everyone feels good about what they are doing. I think you can praise the effort while not praising the result, especially considering the level of experience. Sometimes you can't even praise the effort because knowing how long a person has been woodworking, you are amazed they trotted out their project for display. All of us never stop being beginners at some level. We hopefully continue to try new techniques or styles, stretching our comfort zone. I understand that and I hope I praise that effort no matter how long they have been woodworking. I do not consider myself to have much natural talent, but I am tenacious and will constantly redo something until I can not do better at that time. It may be harsh, but I will only praise a piece of work if I truly am impressed. "

False praise, good point. But, not everyone wants a Cadillac nor can they afford one. Entry level work if appreciated by the buyer should be okay. Now, the buyer of that cannot or should not complain if it doesn't measure up to Vaughn's work, they were in control of their pocket book.

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone. I was only creating thoughts along the other side of the fence. This woodworking forum has proven to me to be the most friendly site for suggestions and honest critiques of work in positive manners anywhere. I do agree that is how we all grow and gain experience.
 
I agree with Jonathan, if a beginner can sell their ware more power to them. I believe that some people look at handmade craft as it is OK to have a few flaws because it looks like it was handmade and not machined. But what I believe hurt good turners more then anything is under pricing, like selling a $5.00 slimline pen, I personally can't buy the kit and wood for that price. Just my opinion.:)
 
Jon, I totally get where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to sound discouraging to newbies. Like all of us, I'm a rank beginner at some aspects of woodworking. I can also find multiple flaws in pretty much anything I've ever made. And I don't mean to imply that beginners shouldn't sell their work. But regardless of whether it's made by a beginner or an old pro, I don't think a $260 piece should have deep 80 grit sanding marks. I think that's the part that got to me the worst. Even a beginner can switch paper grits a few times to smooth things up better than 80 grit.

And of course this whole conversation might be conjecture. The pieces were displayed and had prices on them, but I have no idea if anybody actually buys any of them. ;)
 
Top