Dad's Shop Wall

[glenn bradley]

I know dad has been busy the last week so I'll help him out and post this. About a week ago I took some time off to be his chief shop assistant while he skinned the north wall of his shop. We had to move all the tools and DC ducting. He re-did his electrical panel, repositioned the outlet boxes for the 3/8" ply panels, added insulation and skinned the wall. He was such a whirling vortex of activity, it was all I could do to just stand by and hand him the occasional tool or fastener. What a working son of a gun he is. I helped out by cobbling together a quick clamp rack built to his specifications to add to the old one of mine we also mounted. He now has a ton of wall to add fixtures and storage to. The insulation should keep it more comfy as well. It was a great father/son bonding exercise and I had a blast. I only wish he would have stepped aside and let me do more of the work.

[Jim DeLaney]

Lotsa good work done there!

One thing I wonder about, though - what's the wire guage of the two leads going into that 100 amp breaker in the fourth picture? They look small for 100 amps. Seems like they oughtta be somewhere from #4 ~ #0, depending on whether they're run in conduit or not... They don't look that big in the pic.

[larry merlau]

well done glenn,, and i can attest to having time with dad being one of the best time we as sons can have..when i built the shop and i was at it every day, and now on some occasions we still spend time in it doing woodworking..those times no matter what we get accomplished are PRICELESS!!!

jim is right on that wire guage,, for the main breaker to light!!!!

[Don Baer]

Jim is right about the wire size in fact the whole panel appears to be wired with the same size and if I were to guess it appears to be 14 ga. this is even to small for the 20 amp circuits

[Jim C Bradley]

I know dad has been busy the last week so I'll help him out and post this. About a week ago I took some time off to be his chief shop assistant while he skinned the north wall of his shop. We had to move all the tools and DC ducting. He re-did his electrical panel, repositioned the outlet boxes for the 3/8" ply panels, added insulation and skinned the wall. He was such a whirling vortex of activity, it was all I could do to just stand by and hand him the occasional tool or fastener. What a working son of a gun he is. I helped out by cobbling together a quick clamp rack built to his specifications to add to the old one of mine we also mounted. He now has a ton of wall to add fixtures and storage to. The insulation should keep it more comfy as well. It was a great father/son bonding exercise and I had a blast. I only wish he would have stepped aside and let me do more of the work.

That is the biggest line of boohockey I have read in a long time. Just reverse the roles of the two people involved to get a true picture. I was the flunky and Glenn did all of the work. However it is true that I work 10 times harder when he is here than when I am alone. He really stimulates me and gets my "Git up n go" going.

I think Glenn could make digging ditches fun. It is never dull when he is around. I guess I should shut up---I'm sounding like a proud father and they can be Soooo Boring.

Enjoy,

JimB

I responded to a Thread about Matt Ducar who has ordered a WorkShop 3000. Then I read what Glenn had written in response. It was interesting to me how similar our two responses were.

[Jim C Bradley]

Lotsa good work done there!

One thing I wonder about, though - what's the wire guage of the two leads going into that 100 amp breaker in the fourth picture? They look small for 100 amps. Seems like they oughtta be somewhere from #4 ~ #0, depending on whether they're run in conduit or not... They don't look that big in the pic.

Jim,
That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. It is fed by two 30 amp breakers in the Main Panel for the entire house. I'm not quite sure even I can understand what I just wrote. Therefore I will try again: In the main electric panel for the house are two 30 amp breakers, one from each leg in the box. These two 30 amp breakers are tied together. These 30 amp breakers feed the sub-panel. The sub-panel came with the 100 amp breakers already installed.

I think of the 100 amp breakers as part of the wire that goes to the real breakers (30 amp) in the original house electric panel. So, in effect, what I have is 10 gauge wire going from the sub-panel to 30 amp breakers in the main house panel. This is a good example of where a drawing would be worth a thousand words. Any way the result is that the sub-panel would trip if it received a 30 amp load.

It seems like the more I try to describe it, the more convoluted it sounds. If you have any questions I will draw it, scan it to .jpg and attach it to the thread.

Enjoy,

JimB

[Rob Keeble]

Looks to me like you guys had a whole lot of fun.

I see Glenn in a new line of business when he retires.............shop organization specialist.


Even with what you have said about the breakers i would have thought that wire looks to small but Glenn hopefully would have seen that too so if he thinks its fine then its fine.


Something that not too many think of is that there are a few elements to consider with the thickness of the conductors we use. Not just the code.

One needs to consider that the smaller the cross sectional area the higher the resistance and the bigger the voltdrop. Its all good and well that the breakers dont trip but the issue is what is the actual voltage at the motors connection points when its running. This of course is better for a 220v situation in that typically 220v means essentially a lower current for the same HP motor. That on its own can mean a lower voltdrop.

When a long run is made like from say a home panel all the way to a shop panel which could be ways from the house then despite the load its worth going up beyond what is needed so that when you approach that max load you are not getting a significant voltdrop. Seeing you have a dust collector which will typically be running at the same time as say the table saw or other machine of similar size motor then you want to watch that this is not happening to you.

Each junction point like the in an out of a circuit breaker will add to that loops resistance.

The motor cannot provide its rated power if it dont get the voltage it was designed to work with.

[glenn bradley]

I'm pretty sure what dad is saying is that the feed to the sub-panel is via 30amp breakers in the main panel which is on the opposite side of that same wall. The 100amp breakers are just acting as terminal points. I just tied to the buss bars on my sub-panel which is fed from a 50amp breaker in the main panel which is immediately opposite the sub-panel in my shop as well. Dad could have skipped the 100amp breakers as they are visually confusing and are just "inspector bait" as far as I'm concerned ;-) Perhaps he wanted a "switch" to kill the panel without having to walk to the main. The main is 1 foot away but you have to walk around the outside of the house to get there

[Jim C Bradley]

Jim is right about the wire size in fact the whole panel appears to be wired with the same size and if I were to guess it appears to be 14 ga. this is even to small for the 20 amp circuits

The only 14 gauge wire is to 15 amp outlets on the rafters where the luminaires plug in. Everything else is 12 gauge.
The copper grounding wire is the proper size and is attached to the original aluminum ground with the proper type of connector.

At this time all outlets on 12 ga wire are 20 amp outlets. I did have 15 amp outlets there, because I had the outlets and I knew what would be used with them and only Glenn or I would use them.

Enjoy,

JimB

I have to say that I would do a better job if I were doing it today, starting from scratch. However, in reality what I have has grown like mopsy. I did use 12 ga for everything, except lighting. I have ended up several places with one 20 amp breaker feeding only one or two outlets, just because it was easier to do. It just didn't cost enough more to do that; I didn't have to undo wiring to put in a larger junction box, etc.

I do have one thing that may not be Kosher. I have not been able to find anything that tells me. I do have one GFCI that is clear up to the plate. I placed it there because I had a clear run from the sub-panel for the nm and didn't have to tear anything out to install it. Myrna and I plan to live here until we kick-off. However, if I had to sell the house for some reason, I would remove that circuit.

Enjoy,

JimB

[Jim DeLaney]

Jim,
That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. It is fed by two 30 amp breakers in the Main Panel for the entire house. I'm not quite sure even I can understand what I just wrote. Therefore I will try again: In the main electric panel for the house are two 30 amp breakers, one from each leg in the box. These two 30 amp breakers are tied together. These 30 amp breakers feed the sub-panel. The sub-panel came with the 100 amp breakers already installed.

I think of the 100 amp breakers as part of the wire that goes to the real breakers (30 amp) in the original house electric panel. So, in effect, what I have is 10 gauge wire going from the sub-panel to 30 amp breakers in the main house panel. This is a good example of where a drawing would be worth a thousand words. Any way the result is that the sub-panel would trip if it received a 30 amp load....JimB

JimB,
I see two possible solutions to this situation:

1. Since the two panels are so close together, replace the 30 amp breakers in the sub panel and the garage panel with something larger than the 30 amps (like maybe 50 0r 60 amps?) and run appropriately sized wiring betwixt the two; or,

2. Just get rid of that 100 amp breaker in the garage panel and replace it with a dual 30 to match the other panel.

BTW, if I read you right, you don't have a double pole 30 in the sub panel - you have two separate 30 amp breakers? If that's true, you definitely have an illegal - and potentially dangerous - hook-up. The feeding breaker should be a double-poled one, not two singles.

As Rob has already said, though. 30 amps ain't really enough. Running lights and a tablesaw or an bandsaw or a planer, etc., and a dust collector at the same time will be pushing the limits of the 30 amp breaker(s) in the sub panel, and will also be affecting the performance of both running machines. Time to blow the cobwebs off that wallet and upgrade the electrical a bit, Jim.