Dad's Shop Wall

glenn bradley

Member
Messages
11,514
Location
SoCal
I know dad has been busy the last week so I'll help him out and post this. About a week ago I took some time off to be his chief shop assistant while he skinned the north wall of his shop. We had to move all the tools and DC ducting. He re-did his electrical panel, repositioned the outlet boxes for the 3/8" ply panels, added insulation and skinned the wall. He was such a whirling vortex of activity, it was all I could do to just stand by and hand him the occasional tool or fastener. What a working son of a gun he is. I helped out by cobbling together a quick clamp rack built to his specifications to add to the old one of mine we also mounted. He now has a ton of wall to add fixtures and storage to. The insulation should keep it more comfy as well. It was a great father/son bonding exercise and I had a blast. I only wish he would have stepped aside and let me do more of the work.
 

Attachments

  • Jim rear Vu on ladder.jpg
    Jim rear Vu on ladder.jpg
    92.8 KB · Views: 206
  • NoWall 001.jpg
    NoWall 001.jpg
    109.4 KB · Views: 206
  • NoWall 003.jpg
    NoWall 003.jpg
    112.2 KB · Views: 204
  • SubPanl 004.jpg
    SubPanl 004.jpg
    124 KB · Views: 207
  • SubPanl 005.jpg
    SubPanl 005.jpg
    88.8 KB · Views: 191
  • SubPanl 025.jpg
    SubPanl 025.jpg
    59.6 KB · Views: 188
  • SubPanl 026.jpg
    SubPanl 026.jpg
    67.1 KB · Views: 181
Lotsa good work done there!

One thing I wonder about, though - what's the wire guage of the two leads going into that 100 amp breaker in the fourth picture? They look small for 100 amps. Seems like they oughtta be somewhere from #4 ~ #0, depending on whether they're run in conduit or not... They don't look that big in the pic.
 
well done glenn,, and i can attest to having time with dad being one of the best time we as sons can have..when i built the shop and i was at it every day, and now on some occasions we still spend time in it doing woodworking..those times no matter what we get accomplished are PRICELESS!!!

jim is right on that wire guage,, for the main breaker to light!!!!
 
Last edited:
I know dad has been busy the last week so I'll help him out and post this. About a week ago I took some time off to be his chief shop assistant while he skinned the north wall of his shop. We had to move all the tools and DC ducting. He re-did his electrical panel, repositioned the outlet boxes for the 3/8" ply panels, added insulation and skinned the wall. He was such a whirling vortex of activity, it was all I could do to just stand by and hand him the occasional tool or fastener. What a working son of a gun he is. I helped out by cobbling together a quick clamp rack built to his specifications to add to the old one of mine we also mounted. He now has a ton of wall to add fixtures and storage to. The insulation should keep it more comfy as well. It was a great father/son bonding exercise and I had a blast. I only wish he would have stepped aside and let me do more of the work.

That is the biggest line of boohockey I have read in a long time. Just reverse the roles of the two people involved to get a true picture. I was the flunky and Glenn did all of the work. However it is true that I work 10 times harder when he is here than when I am alone. He really stimulates me and gets my "Git up n go" going.

I think Glenn could make digging ditches fun. It is never dull when he is around. I guess I should shut up---I'm sounding like a proud father and they can be Soooo Boring.

Enjoy,

JimB

I responded to a Thread about Matt Ducar who has ordered a WorkShop 3000. Then I read what Glenn had written in response. It was interesting to me how similar our two responses were.
 
Last edited:
Lotsa good work done there!

One thing I wonder about, though - what's the wire guage of the two leads going into that 100 amp breaker in the fourth picture? They look small for 100 amps. Seems like they oughtta be somewhere from #4 ~ #0, depending on whether they're run in conduit or not... They don't look that big in the pic.

Jim,
That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. It is fed by two 30 amp breakers in the Main Panel for the entire house. I'm not quite sure even I can understand what I just wrote. Therefore I will try again: In the main electric panel for the house are two 30 amp breakers, one from each leg in the box. These two 30 amp breakers are tied together. These 30 amp breakers feed the sub-panel. The sub-panel came with the 100 amp breakers already installed.

I think of the 100 amp breakers as part of the wire that goes to the real breakers (30 amp) in the original house electric panel. So, in effect, what I have is 10 gauge wire going from the sub-panel to 30 amp breakers in the main house panel. This is a good example of where a drawing would be worth a thousand words. Any way the result is that the sub-panel would trip if it received a 30 amp load.

It seems like the more I try to describe it, the more convoluted it sounds. If you have any questions I will draw it, scan it to .jpg and attach it to the thread.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Looks to me like you guys had a whole lot of fun.

I see Glenn in a new line of business when he retires.............shop organization specialist.


Even with what you have said about the breakers i would have thought that wire looks to small but Glenn hopefully would have seen that too so if he thinks its fine then its fine.


Something that not too many think of is that there are a few elements to consider with the thickness of the conductors we use. Not just the code.

One needs to consider that the smaller the cross sectional area the higher the resistance and the bigger the voltdrop. Its all good and well that the breakers dont trip but the issue is what is the actual voltage at the motors connection points when its running. This of course is better for a 220v situation in that typically 220v means essentially a lower current for the same HP motor. That on its own can mean a lower voltdrop.

When a long run is made like from say a home panel all the way to a shop panel which could be ways from the house then despite the load its worth going up beyond what is needed so that when you approach that max load you are not getting a significant voltdrop. Seeing you have a dust collector which will typically be running at the same time as say the table saw or other machine of similar size motor then you want to watch that this is not happening to you.

Each junction point like the in an out of a circuit breaker will add to that loops resistance.

The motor cannot provide its rated power if it dont get the voltage it was designed to work with.
 
I'm pretty sure what dad is saying is that the feed to the sub-panel is via 30amp breakers in the main panel which is on the opposite side of that same wall. The 100amp breakers are just acting as terminal points. I just tied to the buss bars on my sub-panel which is fed from a 50amp breaker in the main panel which is immediately opposite the sub-panel in my shop as well. Dad could have skipped the 100amp breakers as they are visually confusing and are just "inspector bait" as far as I'm concerned ;-) Perhaps he wanted a "switch" to kill the panel without having to walk to the main. The main is 1 foot away but you have to walk around the outside of the house to get there :rofl:
 
Last edited:
Jim is right about the wire size in fact the whole panel appears to be wired with the same size and if I were to guess it appears to be 14 ga. this is even to small for the 20 amp circuits

The only 14 gauge wire is to 15 amp outlets on the rafters where the luminaires plug in. Everything else is 12 gauge.
The copper grounding wire is the proper size and is attached to the original aluminum ground with the proper type of connector.

At this time all outlets on 12 ga wire are 20 amp outlets. I did have 15 amp outlets there, because I had the outlets and I knew what would be used with them and only Glenn or I would use them.

Enjoy,

JimB

I have to say that I would do a better job if I were doing it today, starting from scratch. However, in reality what I have has grown like mopsy. I did use 12 ga for everything, except lighting. I have ended up several places with one 20 amp breaker feeding only one or two outlets, just because it was easier to do. It just didn't cost enough more to do that; I didn't have to undo wiring to put in a larger junction box, etc.

I do have one thing that may not be Kosher. I have not been able to find anything that tells me. I do have one GFCI that is clear up to the plate. I placed it there because I had a clear run from the sub-panel for the nm and didn't have to tear anything out to install it. Myrna and I plan to live here until we kick-off. However, if I had to sell the house for some reason, I would remove that circuit.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Last edited:
Jim,
That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. It is fed by two 30 amp breakers in the Main Panel for the entire house. I'm not quite sure even I can understand what I just wrote. Therefore I will try again: In the main electric panel for the house are two 30 amp breakers, one from each leg in the box. These two 30 amp breakers are tied together. These 30 amp breakers feed the sub-panel. The sub-panel came with the 100 amp breakers already installed.

I think of the 100 amp breakers as part of the wire that goes to the real breakers (30 amp) in the original house electric panel. So, in effect, what I have is 10 gauge wire going from the sub-panel to 30 amp breakers in the main house panel. This is a good example of where a drawing would be worth a thousand words. Any way the result is that the sub-panel would trip if it received a 30 amp load....JimB

JimB,
I see two possible solutions to this situation:

1. Since the two panels are so close together, replace the 30 amp breakers in the sub panel and the garage panel with something larger than the 30 amps (like maybe 50 0r 60 amps?) and run appropriately sized wiring betwixt the two; or,

2. Just get rid of that 100 amp breaker in the garage panel and replace it with a dual 30 to match the other panel.

BTW, if I read you right, you don't have a double pole 30 in the sub panel - you have two separate 30 amp breakers? If that's true, you definitely have an illegal - and potentially dangerous - hook-up. The feeding breaker should be a double-poled one, not two singles.

As Rob has already said, though. 30 amps ain't really enough. Running lights and a tablesaw or an bandsaw or a planer, etc., and a dust collector at the same time will be pushing the limits of the 30 amp breaker(s) in the sub panel, and will also be affecting the performance of both running machines. Time to blow the cobwebs off that wallet and upgrade the electrical a bit, Jim.
 
Hi guys (I guess that is not sexist since I didn't see any female posts),

Rob: Main Panel to Sub-panel is 16 inches.

Jim: No I do Not have two separate 30 amp breakers. They are tied together for their correct use.

Each 220 v machine has its own dedicated breakers and line.

Dust collector is 55 inches from the Main Panel. It is not in the sub-panel.

All wiring runs are well within specs. No two pieces of big equipment run from the same breaker (of course they do run from the same Main).

I have never tripped a breaker in the shop...Well, I lie a bit...I found out things happen fast when you drill into a Romex cable.

Thanks for the interest and the concerns.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Bob,

You don't need me; you need Glenn. Just being around him gives you energy.

To the rest of you: I will check and see what is the proper way to eliminate the 100 amp sub-panel main. However, kicking up to 50 amp breakers to feed the sub-panel would mean increasing the gauge of the wire from Main to Sub. That wire is now inside of the wall and stapled to studs at both ends. To add code size wire for 50 amp breakers in the Main would necessitate taking down a 4 x 8 plywood panel (which we just put up) or cutting one heck of a hole in it (difficult to patch without looking like heck). I think either of those tasks would require about the same time and effort and mess. My play time has been drastically curtailed lately. I need to create sawdust. Maybe later I will do the 50 amp bit.

My maximum load at any one time would be DC (from house Main Panel), BS (from Sub-panel) and illumination (some from Main and some from Sub). Heating also comes from the house Main Panel.

I would state, again, that I have never tripped a breaker except for my one time screw-up with the electric drill.

Thanks again and Enjoy,

JimB
 
Looking good (also staying out of the electrical discussion :D) The plywood walls really do sound pretty good. I can't do them at the current local what with fire code and all (attached garage) but if/when I move.. liking it.

I do have to ask:
  • Whats going on at the base of that 18-900L? Looks... kind of interesting.
  • Is the green pipe above/beside the electrical box more DC connections? Curious whats going on there, looks like an interesting DC hookup
 
Pics from other thread.

View attachment 66691View attachment 66692View attachment 66693View attachment 66694View attachment 66695View attachment 66696Ryan,The green pipe is just an odd piece of SandD. It only shows because the rest of the DC system has been messed with so we could put up the paneling. The short green pipe just takes the DC airflow from the shop to the Outhouse where the Collector resides (gets the noise and exhaust air out of my shop).The interesting stuff at the base of the BS is just getting air out of the BS and into the Dust Collector container. I did a couple threads on that. It really works! I am amazed how well it works. I will post this and then I will go and look for the thread names for you. Glenn did the same thing for his Grizzly G0513 x2. Basically it adds up to months of use (he uses his a lot more than I do) and all dust to the collector except about 1/3 of a cup-full.

Enjoy,

JimB

In pic 1 you can see the little black box like Glenn and I made. It sits right under the table where the blade comes thorugh. I did a thread on building it.

Pic 2 pretty much shows the box. It fits around stuff under the table. The blade passes through it---sawdust is sucked off of the BS blade in a 2 1/2 inch flex (well you can bend it---but it stays in whatever shape you put it in---also smooth inside) which joins to a wye which goes to 4inch, around the base of the BS, then into the regular 6 inch DC system.

pic 3 shows this system joining the regular BS outlet from the lower wheel compartment and merging with the four inch. The

pics will make more sense if you look at the original thread (where the pics apparently vanished).

Pic 4 shows it from another angle.

Pic 5 shows the sawdust that was NOT picked up over a period of months.

Pic 6 is another view of the system.

I know that this is pretty Mickey Mouse. If you are really interested I can redo the so called tutorial

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Last edited:
Goodness I can't get over all that unused virgin shop wall :eek:

Must be nice to have all that space!:thumb:

Isn't that just awesome? However, I did not know it would cause mental stress. You know---Where do I place each item so it is handy and not in the way of another item. I really do not want to end up with a king size, messed-up-like-Mopsey, night mare. I have been there!

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Ryan,

There is also a little brush, just below the table insert. It knocks the stuff off of the blade so the air blowing by can pick it up easily. There is also a zero clearance baffle down there to discourage sawdust from going on down instead of out.

Enjoy,

JimB
 
Top