Working for yourself

[Chuck Thoits]

Yeah, but Sam was in a pretty unique position. He had a backlog that was years long. He once said - at one of his exhibitions - that "People used to say they wanted me to make them a chair before they died...Now they say they want it before I die." Even so, "the Boys" are still working off Sam's backlog, and probably have a couple more year's worth to go. Not many, if any, shops could ever say that.

And that right there Jim is a good example of what good marketing will do for a guy.
And a whole bunch of luck
From what I have seen he was no better a craftsman than the next guy he just had a better plan on how to make it big.
Another example of that is the up and coming "wood whisper" The kids still wet behind the ears but his marketing plan has made him more money than I have in the last 5 years.

[Don Baer]

Chuck,
I was really having fun with ya. I am sure that when Sam started off he was a lot more accommodating to what the client wanted. His first furniture that he made for he and Freida was made from reclaimed 1" thick fir plywood that had to be sand blasted because it had been used as forms for concrete.

[Chuck Thoits]

Chuck,
I was really having fun with ya. I am sure that when Sam started off he was a lot more accommodating to what the client wanted. His first furniture that he made for he and Freida was made from reclaimed 1" thick fir plywood that had to be sand blasted because it had been used as forms for concrete.

And in your fun you brought up some very good points for this thread in starting off being SE.

[Mike Henderson]

Okay, that story started some talking. Let me tell another. I talked with Sam's business manager, Roz. She was pretty open and told me this story - remember, this is in her words:

"Sam hired me when he was about 80. One of the first things I did was to look at the backlog of work - he had about a three year backlog. To me, that did not make sense with Sam being 80. What we needed was a one year backlog. So I raised the price of his work, especially his rockers. But at the end of the year, he still had a three year backlog. So I raised the prices again. Still a three year backlog. No matter how much I raised the prices, he still had a three year backlog."

Sam once commented: "They pay me whatever I ask for my chairs."

And just a comment about Sam - he was a VERY likable guy. Everybody who met him liked him. I think this really helped him because people wanted to help him succeed. He was a very good craftsman but he was also a designer and was able to find designs that resonated with critics, collectors, and ordinary people. And once he had those designs, he was able to let his staff do most of the building of the furniture. Sam did something on every piece of furniture, but his employees did the majority of the work.

And while he had a backlog of work when he died, the value of a"Maloof chair" made by his employees plummeted when Sam could no longer sign the chairs.

Mike

[When Sam was in his high 70's, he bought a Porsche 911. He told a funny story about getting stopped by one of the local cops for speeding. But that's a story for another time.]

[Don Baer]

[When Sam was in his high 70's, he bought a Porsche 911. He told a funny story about getting stopped by one of the local cops for speeding. But that's a story for another time.]

Carol can tell ya some stories about Sam and that Porsche too.

[Chuck Thoits]

One thing that came to mind today and it will kinda muddy the waters for someone starting out. Is that I have no concern for hours. Yes I have an hourly rate but it almost never comes into play for shop work. Pricing/bidding shop projects is more of an art form than a science for me. Case in point I have a cabinet to build now it will cost the designer 480ish I will have no idea how much time I have in it due to one major factor I will make as many projects as I can using the tooling that is set up. Now at this time I only have a kitchen to do that will require the same tooling but at some point I will toss in the planters that need to be made for another client. So while I spent most of today in the shop working the bulk of the time was on other projects and cleaning. Un like Carol I like to have as many different client projects going on at one time as I can. I also try and do every thing on a bid bases. I work to fast to be far to my self on an hourly wage.

[John Daugherty]

I also try and do every thing on a bid bases. I work to fast to be far to my self on an hourly wage.

That makes sense to me Chuck. As we all know the more you do something the quicker we get at it. I could see where you wouldn't be far to yourself by being quick. I've done a few sawing jobs for friends. I've charged by the board foot because being a manual mill if I charged by the hour I'd kill'um.

[Rob Keeble]

Chuck i dont think you muddied the waters at all for me. In fact in my view you just went up another 1000% in the thats how to look at it category.

The market will only pay what the market will pay. Period.

When you have been working for a company all your life on hourly wage and if you have been involved in a union well you got some serious baggage to shed if you going to make it SE.

This to me is one of the most significant issues. I get real tired hearing about all the questions of pricing and how much per hour.

The customer you find wanting x will only be willing to pay y.

If you want more they either gonna go elsewhere or not buy at all.

The value is set not by your costs...but by their perception of what they think is fair and within their mindset of value for the item.

Understanding this value and targeting to sell appropriate work to match their perceptions will get you work at a fair price.

Just because you used the best materials and took all the care in the world to put something together dont mean it gets fair value.
Hard lessons to learn.



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[glenn bradley]

I am also more comfortable with a given job at a given price. That way if I am good at it and get done quickly, I benefit. If I am not as good at it and I take longer, I still benefit from the learning experience. Either way the customer pays what they expected to.

[Ryan Mooney]

Careful with the customer perceptions on pricing per job (I do 100% agree its the way to go, bear with me here).

Anecdote: I used to do some programming on the side, there was a project that one client (who'd I'd done some small stuff for before) wanted me to take a look at. It was a semi-complicated reverse engineering/integration project that they had tried and failed at for around 4-6 months. I looked it over and said sure I can do it for $20k (broken into - 3 or 4 deliverables), they agreed and we moved forward. I had the bulk of the work done in a bit under 2 weeks (first deliverable, roughly $10k worth) at which point they started trying to re-negotiate because I'd gotten it done so fast (its not that it was easy, but part way through I'd figured out a few tricks to speed up the work). In the end we agreed to disagree, I didn't get a dime, didn't finish the project and never did any work for them again (I didn't sue or anything because a) its not really my style - at least on the "small" stuff and b) I had recently moved the better part of an ocean away).

Moral: don't make it look toooo easy or they don't appreciate it.
Second Moral: Turns out the one partner was a coke head (story related to me years later by the other partner) and had done a bunch of other suppliers a bad turn as well. Some customers you're better off firing.