Working for yourself

Yeah, but Sam was in a pretty unique position. He had a backlog that was years long. He once said - at one of his exhibitions - that "People used to say they wanted me to make them a chair before they died...Now they say they want it before I die." Even so, "the Boys" are still working off Sam's backlog, and probably have a couple more year's worth to go. Not many, if any, shops could ever say that.

And that right there Jim is a good example of what good marketing will do for a guy.:thumb:
And a whole bunch of luck:thumb::thumb:
From what I have seen he was no better a craftsman than the next guy he just had a better plan on how to make it big.
Another example of that is the up and coming "wood whisper" The kids still wet behind the ears but his marketing plan has made him more money than I have in the last 5 years.:thumb::thumb:
 
Chuck,
I was really having fun with ya. I am sure that when Sam started off he was a lot more accommodating to what the client wanted. His first furniture that he made for he and Freida was made from reclaimed 1" thick fir plywood that had to be sand blasted because it had been used as forms for concrete.
 
Chuck,
I was really having fun with ya. I am sure that when Sam started off he was a lot more accommodating to what the client wanted. His first furniture that he made for he and Freida was made from reclaimed 1" thick fir plywood that had to be sand blasted because it had been used as forms for concrete.

And in your fun you brought up some very good points for this thread in starting off being SE.:thumb::thumb:
 
Okay, that story started some talking. Let me tell another. I talked with Sam's business manager, Roz. She was pretty open and told me this story - remember, this is in her words:

"Sam hired me when he was about 80. One of the first things I did was to look at the backlog of work - he had about a three year backlog. To me, that did not make sense with Sam being 80. What we needed was a one year backlog. So I raised the price of his work, especially his rockers. But at the end of the year, he still had a three year backlog. So I raised the prices again. Still a three year backlog. No matter how much I raised the prices, he still had a three year backlog."

Sam once commented: "They pay me whatever I ask for my chairs."

And just a comment about Sam - he was a VERY likable guy. Everybody who met him liked him. I think this really helped him because people wanted to help him succeed. He was a very good craftsman but he was also a designer and was able to find designs that resonated with critics, collectors, and ordinary people. And once he had those designs, he was able to let his staff do most of the building of the furniture. Sam did something on every piece of furniture, but his employees did the majority of the work.

And while he had a backlog of work when he died, the value of a"Maloof chair" made by his employees plummeted when Sam could no longer sign the chairs.

Mike

[When Sam was in his high 70's, he bought a Porsche 911. He told a funny story about getting stopped by one of the local cops for speeding. But that's a story for another time.]
 
One thing that came to mind today and it will kinda muddy the waters for someone starting out. Is that I have no concern for hours. Yes I have an hourly rate but it almost never comes into play for shop work. Pricing/bidding shop projects is more of an art form than a science for me. Case in point I have a cabinet to build now it will cost the designer 480ish I will have no idea how much time I have in it due to one major factor I will make as many projects as I can using the tooling that is set up. Now at this time I only have a kitchen to do that will require the same tooling but at some point I will toss in the planters that need to be made for another client. So while I spent most of today in the shop working the bulk of the time was on other projects and cleaning. Un like Carol I like to have as many different client projects going on at one time as I can. I also try and do every thing on a bid bases. I work to fast to be far to my self on an hourly wage.:thumb::thumb:
 
I also try and do every thing on a bid bases. I work to fast to be far to my self on an hourly wage.:thumb::thumb:

That makes sense to me Chuck. As we all know the more you do something the quicker we get at it. I could see where you wouldn't be far to yourself by being quick. I've done a few sawing jobs for friends. I've charged by the board foot because being a manual mill if I charged by the hour I'd kill'um.
 
Chuck i dont think you muddied the waters at all for me. In fact in my view you just went up another 1000% in the thats how to look at it category.

The market will only pay what the market will pay. Period.

When you have been working for a company all your life on hourly wage and if you have been involved in a union well you got some serious baggage to shed if you going to make it SE.

This to me is one of the most significant issues. I get real tired hearing about all the questions of pricing and how much per hour.

The customer you find wanting x will only be willing to pay y.

If you want more they either gonna go elsewhere or not buy at all.

The value is set not by your costs...but by their perception of what they think is fair and within their mindset of value for the item.

Understanding this value and targeting to sell appropriate work to match their perceptions will get you work at a fair price.

Just because you used the best materials and took all the care in the world to put something together dont mean it gets fair value.
Hard lessons to learn.



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
 
I am also more comfortable with a given job at a given price. That way if I am good at it and get done quickly, I benefit. If I am not as good at it and I take longer, I still benefit from the learning experience. Either way the customer pays what they expected to.
 
Careful with the customer perceptions on pricing per job (I do 100% agree its the way to go, bear with me here).

Anecdote: I used to do some programming on the side, there was a project that one client (who'd I'd done some small stuff for before) wanted me to take a look at. It was a semi-complicated reverse engineering/integration project that they had tried and failed at for around 4-6 months. I looked it over and said sure I can do it for $20k (broken into - 3 or 4 deliverables), they agreed and we moved forward. I had the bulk of the work done in a bit under 2 weeks (first deliverable, roughly $10k worth) at which point they started trying to re-negotiate because I'd gotten it done so fast (its not that it was easy, but part way through I'd figured out a few tricks to speed up the work). In the end we agreed to disagree, I didn't get a dime, didn't finish the project and never did any work for them again (I didn't sue or anything because a) its not really my style - at least on the "small" stuff and b) I had recently moved the better part of an ocean away).

Moral: don't make it look toooo easy or they don't appreciate it.
Second Moral: Turns out the one partner was a coke head (story related to me years later by the other partner) and had done a bunch of other suppliers a bad turn as well. Some customers you're better off firing.
 
Had that same problem years back Ryan.
We did a steel building they get broke down into 3 payments payment one 10K on complete frame two complete 10K on siding three 10K complete building. this was the going rate for this type of work at the time.
(Now we had done work for this guy in the past on an hourly deal on other things.)
We had become had become quite efficient at putting up steel and had the frame complete in less than 2 weeks. gave him the bill for the frame. His response was well I know what your hourly wage is and I know how long it took for you to put this up so I am only going to pay you 5K. That ended our relationship for good right on the spot.:thumb::thumb:
 
Moral: don't make it look toooo easy or they don't appreciate it.

That is a pretty true point. My dad had been asked to bid a roofing job many years ago for a shed at a local dairy. Everyone had bidded the job close in price, but my dad had allowed the customer to order the shingles himself to feel like he had control. At the time the shingles showed up, my dad grabbed a few bundles, jumped up on the roof and started, and he was finished by the end of the day. Even though the other contractors had bid the same, their bids were two - three days of work. The farmer was ticked that one man would make that much money in the time that my dad had, wouldn't hire him again. :)
 
One thing for the guy starting out to keep in mind when pricing and figuring out his hourly wage.
I have seen it time and time again a guy quits his job and picks up a hammer and now he's a contractor. He sits down and says well I was getting 15 bucks an hour working for that company. The going rate for this kind of work in my area is 40 so if I charge 20 I'll get all kinds of work and be making the big jing. In the back of his mind he knows/thinks he's not worth the 40 that everyone else charges. I mean really up until last week I was a truck driver so to be fair I'll charge 20 and why not it's a 5 buck an hour raise, yup that's it and off he goes.
Now this becomes a problem for all of us because he is driving the rate down for work or at least making it harder to get the rate needed to run.
He has not been SE before so he has no idea of how much his taxes are going to be at the end of the year. Doesn't realize that by under cutting his wage that he is not going to be able to cover his insurance, gas for the truck, taxes, the increasing power bill fro running the tools at home more. Than the state finds out he is SE and they want there cut of taxes and oh by the way mr X you need to have this insurance and that insurance and don't forget to get your license. All adding up to more dollars out of that 20 an hour.
So I guess the point of this long winded rant is to make sure you are up to par with the rest of the SE community in your area for pricing. You are not doing any one (including your self) any favors cutting your rate to get work.
 
One more thought. Beware making your hobby your job or you may end up still hating your job and you won't have you hobby to take your mind off of it anymore.

I'm leveraging against that possibility by having an excess of hobbies :D
 
Im not looking to discourage anyone, but Im going to stress again, if it was so easy, everyone would be doing it.
For thirty years(yes, I know, retail isnt like going into woodworking), I listened to people tell me, oh yeah, you have your own business, youre rolling in it, whats money to you!.......and Id just shrug them off and grin at them. Like they have any type of clue. The hours, the sacrifices.
Remeber a few things. You get sick. Too bad, you dont produce, you dont eat.
You get hurt, too bad, you dont produce, you dont eat.
Your kid is playing soccer, too bad, you either get the job done or lose a client.
You want to go away the weekend with your wife, too bad, the client wants his product and most of your business will be word of mouth, so you must make people happy, especially while your building a reputation.
If anyone thinks its all bright and sunny trying to make a go at self employment, well, I wont try to change your mind.(no matter how dillusional you are)
Sure, some post here that have been successful on their own, but for every one that posts here of success, 100 have failed.
No more than 5-10% succeed in business today. And business is business. Whether you sell icecream or rocking chairs.
You need a product priced right and customers who will buy that product.
My only advice, to anyone thinking about giving it a go, is to really sit down and make sure you and your family have a long term support plan, including insurances and any other requirements you might need in the immediate future.
I believe trying it part time first, meaning, working your regular field, then sacrificing every spare minute you have for a few years to see if youre cut out for it.
Harsh, nope, just a dose of reality, and in todays tough economic envirnoment, I feel its probably 3 times harder to start up then it was when I went into business.

My best wishes to all that go down the self employment path. I hope to read about you one day in Forbes.

IM sorry if I sound totally negative.(for the record, my business flourished and I sold it 2 weeks after I put it up for sale, but being in business took its toll on me, and I gave up alot of my life, because you become married to a business, )
 
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Well said Allen.

I've been there and done that twice. In the late 80's I owned a contractor supply business and the economy crashed and put me out of business. Second time I was doing great selling specialty supplies to steel erectors and my the key supplier of my main product went belly up so I couldn't supply my customers anymore.

Like Allen I don't want to discourage anyone from living the American dream but be prepared to work your butt off and make sure you have squirreled away enough cash to live on for 6 months if things don't go as well as you plan.
 
Well said Allen.

Second time I was doing great selling specialty supplies to steel erectors and my the key supplier of my main product went belly up so I couldn't supply my customers anymore.
And yet you never sold the best erectors in the state from 1998 to 2002 anything.:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
And here it is 8:30 PM and me as a SE is headed out to the shop to work on cabinets for a few hours before bed.
 
We'll been following this thread a bit now. Here are my experiences with the "side" businesses I've started and done.

So far, I've not got much for doing nothing. Every venture I've tried (speaking in Fusco terms) has ended up being more work than I expected.

My first venture in doing stained glass products on the side I learned the lesson of you really can work for nothing. I produced a lot of stained glass sun catchers, card holders, and nick-knacks that took me many times the hourly rate than they sold for. By the time you add up the hours of work, then the cost of shipping a heavy, fragile item, you can't out compete all the other hobbyist on etsy and ebay that are local to the buyer and can do it for half the cost to you. Do your market research and see what it will bring for your products before diving in and buying stock and making commitments.

Second thing was what Ryan mentioned earlier, that even though you enjoy a hobby, doesn't mean you should do it for a living. My wife decided to try a new career and I found myself putting food on the table by selling stained glass pieces barely above my cost as I had already purchased an enormous amount of stock and time was the only factor that didn't matter, just needed to get the stock sold to get my money back that I had vested. I spent a year doing this. After we got out from under the landslide I've not touched stained glass in 3 years. I have all the tools, but have yet to bring myself to do any again, when I really did enjoy it at one time.

My second venture was in web hosting, I had several clients that I managed websites for. One thing I did correctly was having them pay up front for 12 month contracts. However managing content and doing SEO (Search Engine Optimization) really ate up a lot of my time. Hackers were another factor I hadn't thought much about. At first I had been hosting on my own servers. At one point I had counted 40,000 bad password attempts in a hour. The hacker's bots were knocking on the door 24 hours a day. I finally go smart enough to use a hosting service rather than doing hosting on my own. It let me focus on what I was good at and the cost was much less than expected. So I guess my point is here, take a look at your products, there may be areas that cost you more to outsource, but there are benefits to outsourcing. Perhaps a cabinet shop (or shops) spend an enormous amount of time setting up to cut out drawer sides or do a particular type of raised panel. A mutual benefit could be provided to both of you to help one another out.

OK, most recent venture is the Photo Booth rental service. My wife and I have done these for several years at our annual Halloween party and hadn't really thought much about doing them as a service until the last time we were in Vegas. The conference we were there for had one setup for one of the nightly events. The line for it was out the door! After some thought about it, we had a duh moment and realized they had always been a big hit at our own parties, why not do it as a business? After much market research I found that it was something we could do with relatively low start up costs and make decent returns with each rental. I can't say that it's taken off like gang busters, but business has been steadily building and world is our oyster. My wife takes the calls, manages and finalizes the contracts. She lets me know when the event is and I take care of the technical setup of the booth. Most events we both "man" the booth and sometimes pay our daughter to attend it.

I guess the point in this venture is that up until now, my wife and I never had good communication in these ventures. I ran them the way I saw fit and left her feeling frustrated with having little say in the direction I took. So we sit down weekly to talk about direction and where we think we want to go, also talk about what is working and what is not. Though we're not totally SE, this is more my wife's SE than mine, but it takes both of us to keep things going. Be sure that both of you are are heading in the same direction and not like two cats pulling on each others tails. ;)
 
@Allen

I agree with you on your assesment of the issue of how hard it is to run a small business and be self employed .......but i would also ask that you suggest to those that are unemployed just what they should do when there is no job to apply for or they are applying for jobs and 1000 others are for the same job and it goes on and on. Lets remember they do not have to be thinking in terms of woodworking only.

The American dream started out of guts hard work and a back to the wall. Hope, religious faith and belief and willingness to work have been the corner stone of success whether it be school work or even bring up kids. Heck i found kids harder than business.

As to loosing out on kids and hours of work, well i had all that when i was working for a corporation. I spent weekends at work, flew all over the world and was away from home in a place i could not get back from when my newly wed wife needed me. I lost out on many concerts etc and had to give up planned holidays on no notice. I dont believe this is just the life of a self employed guy. A self employed guy still has a say and chance to decide to do differently.

I dont advocate guys just piling in their cash and starting out in their own business with out doing loads of research and doing the whole excercise on paper to clear the head first, but i dont think merely hoping that some politico or some miracle is going to happen and jobs are suddenly going to appear after the crisis of the past few years.

This is not something that has just happened. Its been building for many many years. Just look at Europe.

Governments around the world have been borrowing money all on the basis of growth continuing. As the years have gone buy the America i was taught about long before i ever got to see it, had a track record of saving as a nation. The America i met and has been turned into a consumer like no other and the system has ensured that the funds were there to spend. Now that cash is no longer there like it was and our generation has woken up to the issue of buy now pay later.

But the debt has to be retired before things will get dramatically better in my view. The pure consumption model is unsustainable.


The other thing we must clear up here is there are different levels of self employment.

A starting point in my view is simply getting to do something that puts food on the table such that when unemployment benefits run out one is not homeless.

If while that succeeds jobs come up well then the choice exists as to whether one continues or takes a job again.


Then there is the concept of creating a business small as it may be with a specfic product or product range. Something like this will need capital to fund it and may well mean dipping into savings or taking on debt. This is a whole new ballgame.


I do think one element that is not spoken of sufficiently is the idea of collaboration and outsourcing. These words would mean different things to different people so i will explain what i mean.


I dont mean a formal partnership when i talk of collaboration. I mean getting together with someone that may be local to you where they are producing x part and you could produce y or you could offer something to their clients or their product that enhances their product or visa versa.

We forget again that many times when very succesful businesses have begun they have started witha group of guys in a garage collaborating. But we get to 50 ish and now are all too independent and full of ourselves and now want to padle a tough canoe single handed. Not too smart in my view.

I put outsourcing in the same category. My suggestion to guys is to take a look around your area and find others that would or could be interested in making a part for you of your product.

Carol has said in her very wise advise to be efficient. This is where you can make a difference.


The old story goes that the entrepreneur hires a lawyer because he is not a lawyer but needs to use the law and have contracts written, he hires an accountant for the same reason. The list could go on. But for some crazy reason make the item something technical which he feels he has the skill for and he thinks he can do it better. Sure he can. But while he has his eye off the ball doing the doing something else does not get done.

When i hear Chuck mentioning he works with designers, i think now there is a guy with his head screwed on right. He can do his knitting and the designer theirs. This is collaboration. This is partnering. These are not one day wonder relationships but they can work to bring a constant supply of work.


Whats crazy is that anyone that is unemployed has probably been in a company where they had to work in a team to get things done. There were other employees working there. Some took orders some did accounts and some ran the store etc.

Why suddenly does that person think they suddenly become invinsible and need to do it all.


Frank Fusco is absolutely correct when he says "People are funny critters" .


I would like to find all the people that knew that Lehman Brothers were going to fail. No one in their right mind thought this was even possible never mind that it has happened.

Who ever thought we would see a nation like Greece nearly go bankcrupt well technically i suppose its not nearly they practically are.

Now in that same vane do you think pensions are absolutely safe and can never falter.


People forget the hit that 99% of the people took to their various savings plans when the stock market took a hit in 2008.

Yet we have people taking retirement and thinking they going to make the longer living that we have today on a concept that is reliant on yesterdays financial thinking.


I am sorry but i think Self Employment is a way to go for many people and couples. I believe this because i think it has greater longevity than the concept of a job.

What many people have not examined in this equation is that many of the small businesses that are employing people today that are independently owned are bombs waiting to go off.

There are many small businesses where the owner now approaching retirement is discovering that their business is not worth very much and that after a lifetime of running it. Given demographics many of these owners are set to retire. They aint too well off when the reconcilliation of debt takes place and there is not the money in the market place to buy up the total value of the businesses that need to change hands in the coming years.

There are going to be many that just simply close their doors and more will be out of work.

Many of these businesses lack something of value for someone else to buy. IN many cases the competitor does not need to buy given that the competitor knows the situation and just has to wait it out. In other cases there is not the earnings to make a sale viable. Most of the actual assets have little to no value and often the business model is very much hinged to particular relationships which are all going at the same time. Succession planning was never on the list for most of these businesses.

But i do agree with the comment that its not for everyone. Just like I thought when i was doing Military service and experienced young men taking their lives because they could not stand it, i realised then that it was not for everyone.


I just do not know what the alternatives are.


The discussion about how much one earns per hour is to me also sensless consider this story below.

This only has bearing if you have alternatives.

A friend of mine in Germany several years ago ( this was not in the 1800's btw:D) started a business one would think could never thrive and survive in Germany at their cost structure. They were doing something rather elementry and you would think it would be done in some Asian country.

They were assembling a very basic 3 to 4 part component for the Personal Computer Industry. What they did was to build a huge warehouse and order the various bits from the component suppliers all around the world.

Then when orders came in they would make up kits, put the word out and the farmers wives in the local area would come around in the afternoon and load up on the components. (Just for the record these were not Amish or the likes before someone starts down that path, not that i think anything is wrong with them or their ways.) In the morning they would drop the assembled units off at the warehouse already packed for shipping and the shipment would be checked and go out to the customer. Farmers wives and family got paid piece work rates. It was a win win all round. It kept money in their local economy and helped the farmers especially through winter.

Pretty creative cottage industry if you ask me. The company today is worth hundreds of millions now employs abou 25 full time in a small back room in the warehouse and owns a factory in Hungary and one in Taiwan. I dont know if they still do the cottage industry thing but this proves you can do things if you are creative and collaborate.


Times like we are living in and through, require in my view leadership. I always say its easy to do something when the economy is in full swing and everyone is growing. People are less frugal then and more generous. It takes creative effort and leadership to make it in tough times but one can if one wants to.
 
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