Fine furniture?

Alan Bienlein

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What is fine furniture exactly?

I scour the net everyday to get my fix for new methods and techniques to use in my woodworking projects. I don't believe in there is only one way to do something. Never have and never will!

It seems that alot of people believe that if you use metal drawer slides your fine furniture piece isn't fine furniture and that it's not quality work.

That if you use nails or screws in your joinery that it's not fine furniture.

That if you use pocket holes or biscuits it's not fine furniture.

That if you use god forbid a belt sander your not building fine furniture.

Why?

Last I checked this is the 21st century and we have all these items available to use in the making of our woodworking projects. Why not use them.

Now people will start to say thats not how they traditionally built fine furniture but I say they didn't have these items available to them and if they were they were cost prohibitive.

Why is it that alot of woodworkers only consider it fine furniture if you only used hand tools?

I understand that some people enjoy using only hand tools and more power to them but how does that make a piece of furniture any more "fine" than one built with power tools?
 
Some people want only solid hardwood, and classical construction. Okay, if they want to pay for it. See www.plesums.com/wood/bedroom/drwhite.html for a piece I built that way recently for a client. But I also figured that I could sell it for half the price with some shortcuts that I would take if I were building it for myself.

And I did NOT use a belt sander. I used a 38 inch drum sander.

My square steel nails to attach the shiplap back came through my nail gun.

but the sides were wider than my power planer so they were partially planed by hand.

And I bought drawer boxes from a factory.
 
This obviously is going to have a ton of different opinions. To me it's about not compromising your design to make it easier. Building to last a lifetime, versus the standard disposable furniture we see in stores. A drawer doesn't have to have dovetails, but to shouldn't be butted together and brad nailed. Finished with care and thought, not picking something just because its easier or cheaper.
 
Thats the purpose of this thread Jeb. I want there to be some discussion.

Charlie I'm interested to know why you call them short cuts? I don't call using plywood a shortcut but I see it as a more effecient way to use our materials and get the same or better product.

As for the belt sander i believe it's a useful tool if you know and understand how to use one. I'm thankful I was taught the proper way to use a belt sander and can sand solid wood edging flush with the surface of plywood without burning thru the veneer.

I can tell you right now a belt sander has touched everything I have ever built.
 
The usual argument I hear is that classic fine furniture was built by the masters using hand tools. Well, duh... How many power tools were available way back then? And, do you think for a minute the masters would not have embraced power tools and high-quality plywood? They were master furniture builders, not dummies!
 
To me what defines it is how long it l lasts, how well it's sanded, how good the finish is, and how well any moving parts operate.

Technique, level of ornate mouldings, and design have nothing to do with it.
 
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I have a Deacons Bench from the 30's...in the 60's I teethed on it, still has my teeth marks in the backrest. It's been in our family since 1951 and although it sucks to sit on (just not comfy!) it's a great example of fine, in the well built catagory, furniture.
 
...
Charlie I'm interested to know why you call them short cuts? I don't call using plywood a shortcut but I see it as a more effecient way to use our materials and get the same or better product.
...

On the web page I referenced, I explain how plywood provides better stability (even if moving to different climates), simpler construction because of the stability, and a lot less work (given the quality of the "premium" hardwood I can buy today). If somebody still wants hardwood cabinet sides and will pay for it, fine. If somebody wants to pay me to mill shiplap hardwood and nail it to the back, rather than just putting on a plywood back, fine, I will take their money. It is a shortcut because plywood is a lot less work, and IMHO gives as good or better results.

I even go more modern on trimming hardwood edge on plywood... I have a (power) lipping planer for that job. I rarely use my belt sander!
 
I can agree with you on that the customer will get what he's willing to pay for. If he's willing to pay for solid wood then that's what he'll get.

Keep it coming folks!
 
Agree with all the points above, it's going to be different for different customers. I prefer high quality drawer glides. My FIL wouldn't dream of using them, they have to be wooden and waxed. To me the joinery, quality of materials, hardware, and finish make a piece "fine" or "not fine".

To add, I think seeing some artistry, either by design or proper use of materials and hardware can set a piece ahead.
 
It would be interesting to see what tools or techniques were considered innovations in the 18th and 19th century.

How were tools considered new viewed by the masters craftsmen of the day, tools we consider classical?

I m sure someone could research an old sears catalog to see what tools were considered modern back in the day. Times have changed dramatically and very quickly as well. It used to be that a career in a trade like furniture building as in many others required an apprenticeship just to be able to work.

When I first started my career in architecture being a senior draftsman was a step away from being an architect and it required many years of work and apprenticeship with an architect or engineer. I climbed as high as a junior draftsman before the advent of computer aided drafting and things were never the same again. But it doesn't mean that great things cant still be designed it just means its a different time and different set of values.

We use different tools today and different materials but I think what makes something a 'fine' piece of furniture is the care and attention to detail that is taken in its construction. A craftsman should try to live up to the standards of quality that have been established in the industry by those who have excelled in the past.
 
top quality of joinery, top quality of finish, quality of inlay/veneer work, not necessarily inlay/veneer work, but the quality of it if it is incorporated into the piece.


and then again, if youre last name is Fine, and you make furniture, its all fine furniture
 
I think it's the craftsmanship, IE: the attention to details, be it joinery, finish, material choice etc. when you look at a piece and instantly 'feel' it...but what do I know, whenever I ask my wife 'how does this look?, what do you think about this?' she always says " it looks fine dear" :D
 
Alan i saw your post this morning and you have had me thinking about what i would consider to be "fine woodworking" all day.

I do think the issue as to whether it needs to be made using hand tools or not is not relevant to having the piece come out as what i would consider "fine woodworking"

To me its more than just an issue of quality work or hardwood or finish or design.
To me its all of the above. Fine woodworking in my view is not about a piece i would personally like. Rather a piece which demonstrates that the craftsman/artisan that made it took the effort to select the wood and cut from that selection the best appropriate cuts to meet the need for the design. That the design demonstrates a certain style even if its unique. In this sense i do not consider a simple side tabel as fine furniture when its simply a box with or without a draw made of hardwood and finished with a spray on coating.
To me the design aspects both in terms of joint consideration, wood type and cut selection, choice of embelishment ie inlay or carving or trim and its appropriateness to fit the selected design are very important to give the piece fine woodworking status.
Then execution of the build comes into play. How well joints fit and the various pieces come together. Detail such as that contained within Charlies post on the cabinet. He makes quiet a few points in my view that illustrate what i am trying to convey. Draw rails that are raised so as not to mar the front cross rail. Draws sized so as not to slip slide as they are pushed in or pulled out. Consideration as to wood expansion and contraction taken into account and done in a manner where the knowledgeable eye will should they desire be able to detect that these considerations have been taken into account.
In finish i think fine woodworking should have a finish in keeping with the quality and artistic appropriateness of the piece overall.
I think its sad that so much wood is finished in a manner that rather than show off the wood covers it up.
There are times when a knot is appropriate to be shown in all its glory. But as i have seen done by Dave H it also needs to fit in to the finish process in my view and so needs treatment and preparation before being tied in with the final finish.
Fine furniture in my view should be appropriate to the period. Not only be woodoworking creations from past time periods re created. Surely we have enough true artisans around today that could come up with 2012 period furniture that demonstrates the fashion and style of our times the way the Danes created their modern pieces and style.

But were Finewoodworking only to involve furniture i think it would be a diservice to all the turners and carvers and inlay artisans.

I close my eyes and see that piece of Vaughns that leaves an indelible image in my mind and i say "thats fine woodworking"

I think of Tonis tool panel carving or some other work of his that i have seen pics of and think thats finewoodworking.
I think of your bed and kitchen or Toms Kitchen or Charlies cabinet he linked to or Mike Hendersons work or Larrys Hoosier cabinet and on and on to the many many comrades we have here who post their work executed with care and passion and i think those are all Fine Woodworking.

But i dont think it matters how they were made or what tools the piece was made with.

I do think there is a different world to be experienced in doing as much as reasonably possible by hand with hand tools but that has more to do with challenge and romatic notions of thoughts of being equal or up to the task of making it by hand the way the old masters HAD TO. Along with enjoying each stroke and cut along the way. Trying to recreate and relive the experience they would have had making a piece.

Well thats my long version....of what fine woodworking is.

I cannot believe that the woodworker of the 18th century would not have embraced a belt sander or router if they had the choice to do so.
Productivity in all respects as Charlie very well illustrates in his article comes into the equation and would have back in those days as much as it does today.

I challenge many to be able to see a piece like your bed and determine without having lived through the build pics like we all did, that you "stretched" your walnut the way u did. Does that make the piece less finewoodworking..not in my books. I ask what the difference would have been had you had enough walnut to do it all i. solid walnut and then how many people could tell.?

well thats my 5 cents.:)




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Charlie,

That URL was a great read---and I do not plan to ever make any furniture---Shop cabinets, yes---Furniture, no.

I have a bathroom "counter" made of solid wood. Actually it is a nice piece of furniture that I converted to a bathroom counter. The wood came from trees that were marked by the King's men way before we became a country. These trees were off limits to anyone except for building the King of England's ship's masts. This wood was made into my cabinet around 1955 when Myrna and I purchased it.

To say that we like the cabinet is a gross understatement.

Actually it is solid wood, except for the plywood back.

I will go take a pic of it.

Well it ended up three pics. One shot overall, one close and the one of a bathtub shelf I made to match the cabinet. The pics don't look like it but my shelf does look like the cabinet.

Enjoy,

JimB

Well coming back to this I see that I got too interested in photography and forgot to make the point. This piece is nicely constructed. It is sound. The joints fit. It is solid wood with a history. It has a nice finish. It is real fine by us. I would not want to part with it. It would take a lot of money to convince me that I would sell it. However, my gut does not classify this as "fine" furniture. AND I CANNOT TELL YOU WHY I FEEL THAT WAY.
 

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Echoing what pretty much everyone else seems to agree on.

  • Quality of design
  • Quality of materials
  • Quality of joinery, and overall workmanship
  • Quality of finish

Clearly there will be individual opinions on each of those as to what constitutes "fine" quality in each of those categories but in general I think most people would agree that each element should be one that survives the test of time.

Some parts are pretty simple. Material and workmanship are pretty well understood and easy to judge (although there are of course arguments over the details, but in general if its strong, well executed, and finely fit I'd say that its arguments in the weeds).

The challenge is of course that its really hard to know a priori on what design will stand the test of time unless its one that already has (and reusing is of course just derivative..). Finishes have a similar problem if your not sticking with the classics (which have a higher maintenance burden for the most part), newer stuff is easier and arguably stronger initially.. but will it last for a hundred years, two hundred years, a thousand years? (and some finishes that we know work well for long periods like white lead paint are off limits for other reasons).
 
Just as important as the workmanship is the design and proportion of the piece. The design says a lot about the knowledge of the builder. By design I mean the relationship of the lines and proportions of the piece and how true to its style the piece is.

A bad design, poor proportions, or wrong period details are only a few of the things that can render good workmanship a waste.

An admirer will first look at the aesthetic value of a piece of furniture. If it is unappealing they just walk away regardless of the intricate joinery.
 
I dont care much for the definition of fine furniture being relegated to merely the term "Quality".

In my experience Quality is defined as "Fit for purpose". That leaves a great deal of room for junk to be made and called Fine Furniture.

Its the "fit for purpose" approach thats led to products being made en Masse out of practically any garbage one can come up with. Home depot currently has a promo on what they call "kitchen cabinets" i shudder to use the term to call em a cabinet never mind have any desire to see it in my space. But i have to confess, if there is nothing in the room and you need a cabinet (being defined as box with door and shelf) then yup these are cabinets. What the room is called is up to you once the cabinet is in. So they are "fit for purpose". Finished. even Assembled, even have a euro style hinge.

So are they fine woodworking because they are quality, as in fit for purpose? These cabinets by the way were NOT made in China so that removes the Taichi element from the product.

In my books the elements that put them outside fine woodworking are the super thin particle board they made from, the way the euro hinge is secured (only reason i know this is because of all the doors hanging off the model cabinets in store) the fact that the doors do not have any hardware to open them. The finish is so poor that the cardboard exterior scratches it off when its removed. As to the design well its just a box and a poor one at that.
 
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