Spray finishing accessories

Charlie i keep forgetting to look at your website when i need the answer to something. Youre a goldmine of valuable information.

Thing i dont get given what you say about siphon guns is why people say one needs to have a huge compressor to spray if hvlp is low pressure.
Larry taught me to spray with my pancake and a small siphon gun from harbor freight. He did not choose the tools i did but he did show me how to make them work adequate for my needs and capabilities at this stage.
But now i have had it in my mind to buy a big compressor to "step up to the plate and take a swing" and now you got me thinking perhaps better to get the fuji like Alex in Japan has i think iirc.
The other side of the coin i thought was being able to use air tools and here i am thinking of sander or die grinder type which as i understand it require loads of CFM at decent pressure.
Where would you draw the line at min size of compressor Charlie.
Do you do or have you considered air driven sanders?

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...Thing i dont get given what you say about siphon guns is why people say one needs to have a huge compressor to spray if hvlp is low pressure...

Think about it for a minute, Rob...high volume, low pressure. ;) A big compressor is recommended because it can put out the high volume (CFM). In most cases, large compressors don't put out much more pressure (PSI) than a little pancake compressor, but they typically put out a much higher volume of air. But I'll bet you already knew that. :)
 
I was just in the same position. My compressor would be very marginal for an HVLP spray setup. I had to decide whether to go with a big compressor or get a turbine system. The biggest advantage to the turbine for me, is you don't need to worry about moisture and oil vapor in the line. With a compressor you have to put oil traps and water filters on the line and it was even recommended to have a separate line just for spraying, to help with contamination. With the turbine system I can carry it about anywhere and just hook it up and start painting.

I looked at all the turbine systems but I wanted to try and stay around $500. Some say you need at least a 4 stage system to spray latex paint but those were way out of my budget. I ended up deciding on the Earlex 6900 Spray Station and for a beginner like me, it's very easy to use. I have sprayed both water borne poly and latex paint with great results. It did fine with the latex paint, although I did thin it some. The Poly I didn't even touch, strait from the can. Give the system a look, it may meet your needs also.
 
Think about it for a minute, Rob...high volume, low pressure. ;) A big compressor is recommended because it can put out the high volume (CFM). In most cases, large compressors don't put out much more pressure (PSI) than a little pancake compressor, but they typically put out a much higher volume of air. But I'll bet you already knew that. :)

Yeah you are right i know that and got that long ago,... but Charlie said that the pressure at the tip is only like 5psi thats what i am latching onto. Well if you scale back the pressure on most compressors then they can deliver a volume maybe not my pancake as much but what i am interpreting from what Charlie is saying is that perhaps i have been aiming at the stars in sizing my "new compressor" ( lol its going to be some time before i buy it because of power constraints where we are) when the moon would do for a size of compressor. Funny thing is i have a siphon gun with the hole in the pot and can relate to what Charlie said about the negatives are. Mind i am nowhere qualified to talk here. But i do feel it puts out material at too high a pressure. First time i really noticed was last time i was spraying my sons shelves. I get the turbine aspect in the high volume aspect and low pressure. I can see how that results in way less bounce and better atomization of the fluid being sprayed.
 
rob if you want to get something really good to get into tight areas well get a kremlin setup!!! that is what i would love to have and bryan cowing uses one as does jim hager..
 
Some are confused with CFM and PSI. My explanation may be easier to understand. I relate both to water coming out of a hose. The pressure of the water coming out is similar to PSI. The amount of water coming out of a hose is similar to CFM. It's not much different when speaking of air spray systems. You have the line pressure (PSI) that leads to the gun. For some guns (siphon/pressure fed), the PSI provides the force to manipulate the fluid, and allow an air/fluid mix internally within the gun.

With those guns, having a small regulator and pressure gauge (and disposable filter) mounted right on the handle of the gun allows the gun to be set for specific air pressure. The amount of CFM, that is carried to the gun depends on the output of the compressor (disregarding the size of the tank). For example, just for round numbers, you could have a compressor with a 5.0 CFM, and 125 PSI capability. In using a pressure fed gun, you could run full PSI to the gun and then regulate the gun with the mounted regulator. In theory, you deliver to the gun, and the gun will function at the air pressure (PSI) set, and the CFM relative to the amount of air available at that air pressure. Guns have different requirements, and you'll see in the specifications the operating CFM's required. IOW, how much air (not pressure) the gun needs to operate.

HVLP is a different story. They operate at low pressure (at the gun), but high CFM's. This is why there is less overspray. The line pressure to the gun may be between 35 and 50 PSI, but the gun may operate at 15 to 20 PSI. These figures will vary from gun to gun. So, the amount of air (CFM) has to be present to dispense an atomized spray, and if the compressor can't provide that output (CFM not PSI), the gun will not operate properly. Not to confuse the issue, but if you look at a compressor's specifications, the lower settings for PSI yield higher CFM's than high PSI settings.

I don't know if my explanation cleared anything up, and I may not be entirely right. I'm just a woodworker that does finishing.


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Let me try my explanation...

Using my PSH-1 conversion gun, which requires around 10-11 cfm, I use my "big" compressor (where big is a 13 gallon tank but runs on 120 volts, so cannot be over 1 1/2 honest hp) but that compressor only produces about 4-5 cfm. NO PROBLEM. Even though I use air twice as fast as the compressor can produce it, the tank gives me the air I need. As long as the trigger is pulled less than half of the time, the compressor can keep the gun happy and the air tank sort of full. The compressor may be running close to full time while I draw air half time. I only remember running out of air once, and it was after 5 minutes of almost continuous spraying (and may arm was as tired as the compressor).

Second trick. I run my air hose at 100-120 psi, so I can get a lot of air through the small hose. At the end of the hose is a pressure reducer - as the pressure is reduced to 20 psi going into the gun, I get 5 times as much air volume as I started with. Boyle's law says pressure times volume is constant (constant temperature and other constraints, but close enough for discussion). So when I go to 1/5 the pressure, I get 5 times the volume. A small air hose is okay if the pressure in the hose is high, and the pressure is reduced after the hose. If I had to run 20 psi from the compressor to the gun, the standard air hose would constrain the air flow - you would want a bigger hose.

Third trick. Most HVLP conversion guns take about 20 psi in, but HVLP legally is required to have no more than 5 psi at the tip. No problem. As the 20 psi air goes through the gun, the air path gets larger, the air expands, and the pressure drops (Mr. Boyle again). But the air pressure police are happy with 5 psi at the tip. If you decide to run 30 psi into your conversion gun, your tip pressure may rise above 5 psi, and you may be breaking the law (in about half the states), but you may like the results better - depending on the gun, maybe better atomization, at the cost of more overspray. The CAT Jaguar gun even has two spray caps... one that meets HVLP requirements, and another that works slightly better, but with a tip pressure just over the 5 psi limit.

So do you need a 1 1/2 hp compressor with a 13 gallon tank to run an HVLP gun? NO. I know a professional furniture restoration "artist" who uses his hot dog compressor - typically about 4-6 gallon air tank. The only problem is that he has to pause occasionally when spraying to let the compressor catch up. (He is almost as old as I am, so his arm may need to rest too). I have a tiny compressor that I use to install mouldings on bookcases - just shoot a few brads at a client site. It probably has a 1 gallon or smaller tank. (I have to fill the air tank twice to pump up a car tire). I occasionally spray with it for touch-up work. It works just fine, but with the tiny tank and low volume compressor, I can't spray much before I need to wait for the compressor to catch up.

Now the second subject... air filter

If you have a oil lubricated air compressor (quieter and longer lasting than an oil-less compressor), a tiny amount of oil will escape into the sompressed air, which is not good for any finish, and especially bad for water based finishes. You can put a filter by the compressor, but if any oil gets into the hoses, they will never be perfectly clean. The recommended solution is a filter near the spray station. Jeff Weiss recommends the disposable Grainger 6ZC63. One of the users of that filter recognized that the primary contaminant was water, so the filters could be dried out and reused.

Third subject ... air tools.

I had some automotive type air tools (air wrenches, etc.) and they worked fine with my cheap compressor, but they made it work hard. I don't do a lot of mechanical work (I like wood) so I sold the air tools.

At one of the big woodworking trade shows, a salesman decided I needed an air sander. After cutting through the hype, the bottom line was that I needed a 5 hp compressor to run one sander. If I were in an explosive environment (like an auto body shop with flammable solvents and paints) it would make good sense. In a wood shop, I looked at 4-5000 watts electricity for the compressor to run the air sander, compared to about 300 watts to run my big 6 inch Festool electric sander. For 1/15 as much power I can handle the slightly higher weight of an electric sander, thank you. But people of good character love their air sanders.
 
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Charlie, these are the specs from my compressor CFM at 90 PSI: 5.3, Max. PSI: 155, Volts: 120, Amps: 20, HP: 1.6, Air Tank Size (gal.): 30. I was told many times, by several sources, that it did not have enough CFM to handle a good HVLP spray gun. Now you are saying that it is big enough to spray with. Did I just spend a bunch of money on the Earlex system that I didn't have to spend?
 
Thank you very very much Mike and Charlie. Your replies make perfect sense of the subject. Now i understand.
Charlie to cleared up for me exactly what was confusing me. And by the way i agree with your view of the economics of the air sanders etc.
Very good explanations from both of you.
This explains exactly how i have been able to spray with a small (so called hvlp but at HF who knows gun, heck it only cost $12 or so $. ) on a porter cable pancake compressor. sure as you say it runs like crazy :) and yeah keep that up and its not going to go the distance. But i would love to have the time to have that problem. It would mean a) i am woodworking b) that i am getting it done in good enough state to warrant me finishing it. Lol.
Now i can set mysights on something more sensible all round.
I think hobbyists need to be realistic about their expectations in regards to tools that pros use and use frequently and the investment versus what a hobby project can be done with by applying a little patience.
Thanks again i really appreciate you taking the time to clear up the misunderstandings for me.

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Charlie, these are the specs from my compressor CFM at 90 PSI: 5.3, Max. PSI: 155, Volts: 120, Amps: 20, HP: 1.6, Air Tank Size (gal.): 30. I was told many times, by several sources, that it did not have enough CFM to handle a good HVLP spray gun. Now you are saying that it is big enough to spray with. Did I just spend a bunch of money on the Earlex system that I didn't have to spend?

Your air compressor will work great with any HVLP gun I know of, as long as you don't hold the trigger more than 50% of the time. (Can you imagine having the trigger pulled for more than 50% of the time over a 5-10 minute period?) Further, many of the newer HVLP guns use less air, sometimes even being called LVLP guns. With them you should be able to keep the trigger pulled 80-90% of the time - i.e. you will probably never run out of air.

A couple years ago I did a favor for someone, and they gave me a cheap turbine sprayer. (It may have been Earlex, but I don't remember.) I used it a while, but could see that the atomization was degrading gradually - that it wasn't a professional quality unit, so I sold it cheap while I could still sell it. That is why the cheapest turbine system I would consider is the Fuji 3 stage system. If you can still return the Earlex, I suggest you do so.
 
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This explains exactly how i have been able to spray with a small (so called hvlp but at HF who knows gun, heck it only cost $12 or so $. ) on a porter cable pancake compressor. sure as you say it runs like crazy...

I have one of those $20 HF guns. It looks just like my $100 Porter Cable, but does not do as good a job - by far. As you know, shellac sticks to anything, including brushes and spray guns, no matter how hard you clean it, so it has been dedicated as my shellac only gun - I am not worried about perfect atomization when spraying a sealer that is going to be largely sanded off.

I suggest that you consider investing in a better spray gun to use with your little compressor. I know two people who are ecstatic over the CA Technologies Jaguar gun - both said it was pretty expensive, but after they tied it, both said it was cheap for what it does (and one of them uses it with a pancake compressor). If that is too expensive, I would still upgrade from HF - I have never been happy with a gun that cost under $100.

And if you get a good gun, and some good water based finishes, you will enjoy finishing enough that it becomes the easy part of a project, not a painful ending.
 
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Rob, regarding air-powered tools, I use a pneumatic sander at the lathe, a 2" random-orbital sander (ROS). Running a large 5 hp compressor to spin a 2" sander isn't very cost effective, but I haven't found a 2" ROS yet that runs on 120v. When I bought my compressor, I went very big (overkill, actually), but I wanted something that could run anything I hooked up to it, including a sand blaster.
 
Thanks for the advice Charlie. I really only got the gun to get my feet wet. Now that i understand more and have had a go (thanks to Larry breaking down the barrier) i am ready to spend some money on it.

Oh Vaughn you sure know how to lead a man to temptation by mentioning certain catch phrases like "Sandblasting" . rofl. :) That was silently I was hoping, one of my alterior motives behind a kick ass compressor. Only thing thats been holding me back is space, power (220v) and the fact that i have not yet got my 220v jointer running on my generator.
However like a good reality show( lol i hate them) there is another episode of that coming when all this white stuff leaves and temps rise. I got one last idea to try out and a new source for starter caps locally where they are as cheap as a burger. So stay tuned. :)



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Thanks Charlie but it's too late to try and return it. I'll just go ahead and use the Earlex as I do like it but I may pick up a gravity fed air gun and see how the two different systems compare with the same product.
 
Thanks Charlie but it's too late to try and return it. I'll just go ahead and use the Earlex as I do like it but I may pick up a gravity fed air gun and see how the two different systems compare with the same product.

Ah, Craigs List. The burial ground for imperfect tools. Especially "Almost new, hardly used...."
 
A lot of this discussion was addressed in this thread. But the more these details get discussed the more info is garnered. I don't agree with a poor finish from an inexpensive gun. I have a bunch of guns, and my all time favorite is a Binks 7. I first tried a cheap import copy of that gun during a weekend of non stop work. It was from an an auto paint and body supply, and is a Binks 7 copy. It's similar to the same guns sold at HF, for about $20, but I paid about $49. I have no complaints with that gun, and I've used it with a small on site compressor. Some of the local shops that I mentor use the HF guns, as they are affordable. They aren't stainless, or especially rigged for WB finishes, and there has been no problems with them in operation or corroding.

So, I'll say, that finishing can be as good or as bad as the finisher. Can't blame the gun.


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Figured I would share what I have used for many years. The Spray Fine ; 4 stage is a power horse. Cost less then $500.00 with the hose and cheep gun 7 years ago.
Got to keep the filter clean and it will spray anything I need. I like the fact that it pushes warm air also




The the 1st control air adjustment I added to get the air presser way down to almost nothing. I always use a wrap around the cup. when you tilt the gun as much as I do to get into places you can get a drip and game over.


And your standard HVLP gun ,just keep it clean and it will go forever. I have warn out a number of tips. What I like about this gun ; I can dial it down to almost an air brush, in pressure and size of spray. I can not get a oval but I can take a piece of paper and cut a oval and spray through it. Once you get the adjustments figured out it game on with this gun. I can not turn it upside down but I still can spray under tops sideways.
 
Dave

Thanks for the suggestion - I had not heard of this brand but found them on the web at http://www.turbineproducts.com/servlet/Detail?no=93

They are the first vendor I have found that sells the turbine without the gun - 3 stage for $325, 4 stage for $425, hose for $50 (locally turbine hoses are $75)

You refer to the gun included with the kit as a "cheap gun" - I noticed that it is a bleeder gun (limited control of air flow). If you had to replace your system would you buy the kit with the gun, or would you buy the turbine and hose, and get a better gun elsewhere? For example, my CA Tech turbine gun cost $125 delivered, and is non-bleeder with full air control.
 
Charley I'd buy the guy from my suppler here in town. Industrial Finishes in Rockville. You can do a search on them and see what they have. What is so nice about this is it's compact and easily moved to off site.
The 4 stage is well worth the extra money.
 
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