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What would you charge- bench plus shelf

wow. it all boils down to where you are, what the market will stand, and how close and what type of relationship you want to maintain with the client. Will he be a friend in the future, will he reco you to other people, this is always going to be up to you larry. You know what you might be able to get, how low you are willing to go will have to be your comfort level, what will you tolerate.
 
Mentioned earlier, but not mentioned enough: Even a hobby woodworker can hurt the professional craftsmen in the area. The hobbyist owes it to the people who are trying to feed a family to not undercut them. A gift to a friend, fine. But not fine to sell an item for half price, which sets a baseline that the community will expect from the professionals.
 
Charlie Plesums said:
Mentioned earlier, but not mentioned enough: Even a hobby woodworker can hurt the professional craftsmen in the area. The hobbyist owes it to the people who are trying to feed a family to not undercut them. A gift to a friend, fine. But not fine to sell an item for half price, which sets a baseline that the community will expect from the professionals.
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There's just no way around that Charlie. But 7 out of 10 times the retired guy at the craft show selling for half price also has half price quality. So who are we to judge his price he know what his work is worth.:thumb::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Wow you guys are really nailing it on the head here! The "once you give them a deal they always expect it" rings so true from my computer consulting experience. Its the really rich guys who are the worst to (back to Charlies comment on "known millionaires"), they didn't get that way by giving away their money!

I figure if you want to do charity work might as well do it for a charity. Habitat can always use help :D Or donate to charity auctions (which is an interesting way to gauge potential value in an area without trying to sell something - although it varies wildly depending on who shows up).

I can't really do outside work nowadays (employment restrictions blah blah - I can give stuff away to friends so the list is shortish) but used to do a fair bit of network and computer consulting, and the folks trained horses for a living the overlap in the discussion here on the business side approaches 100%. Both of those had all the same problems (amateurs dropping the value - and then worse people expecting you to FIX the problem for the same rate - "But Fred only charged us $200 for 30 days on that horse!!" Yeah but you still can't ride him and that doesn't even cover my hay.. "But my nephew only charged us $8/hr to setup this network".. Yeah but it doesn't work does it and was he paying taxes on that? Oh cash under the table huh umm hmm..).

This is also one reason I don't like doing that much business with friends you so often end up with neither (there are of course exceptions but its so easy to get emotions tied up into this).
 
well here is the next step..

i went back refigured this up done some more research and came up witha figure i felt ok with and dropped them the quote will see how it shakes out.. but thanks for all of this discussion and i am trying to make a small living at this in one form or another.. last year i was asked to work for a guy in another state that i could have made more and learned more at the same time i hated to turn him down, he was in a bind and had obligations with this amp so i was in catch twenty 2.. so stu, i hear you and am going to do my best to change things this year. but i still need to eat sometime.. so with all the help here i will tell you what i quoted this at for these sorta friends and you can discuss or scold me if you like but i will do things differently next time if ther eis one i doubt they take this if they do then i know they really do appreciate my quality of work ...

bench-64" wide, 21" high, 19" deep with a storage area under the lid with 2 partitions-unfinished soft maple-550
shelf-64"wide, 7" high, 12"deep- unfinished soft maple-225
 
Charlie Plesums said:
Mentioned earlier, but not mentioned enough: Even a hobby woodworker can hurt the professional craftsmen in the area. The hobbyist owes it to the people who are trying to feed a family to not undercut them. A gift to a friend, fine. But not fine to sell an item for half price, which sets a baseline that the community will expect from the professionals.
Click to expand...

well, nothing to do with larry here, but I don't think anyone who does woodworking for a hobby and trying to make a few bucks for himself, maybe boost his ego that someone would purchase something from him, maybe doing it for his own pride and joy, I doubt he has any concerns with the professionals in the area.
the professional should live off his reputation, and not have to worry about joe schmo who told them he could build them a deck for 30% less.
Buyer beware. how bout, YOU get what you pay for?
Its been my experience, its the other contractors that are trying to kill another pros business, give quotes where they don't profit, but want to keep the other pro from getting any business.(we had it going on here for a bit, general contractors, all with good reputations, went to price wars and a lot of people in my area did very well with prices. My new neighbor paid 6600.00 vs 11000.00 for a lot of roofing and repair work done on his house after he moved in. Contractors saw the others guys truck parked one day and knocked on his door that night, offering him same work for almost half price)

and the other side is, there are too many contractors who believe they are entitled to any amount of money they ask for.

I think a bit of competition from everyone, keeps a lot of people in line, and the pros have to build their reputation in order to keep doing well.
 
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Larry, it all comes down to what you have to do to put food on the table, and only you know what it takes to do that. We all know the quality of your work, and you should not give it away.
I feel like when someone wants something built, that they know that you need to make a living just as they do. They are not able to do it themselves, or they wouldn't be asking you to do the build, therefore they have to pay your price, or go to the local store and buy some cheap throw away product. As long as you are satisfied with your price, that's all that really matters. I use to be shy about asking for a fair deal, but that changed after the first time I was questioned about the cost by my next door neighbor that I did a job for, ( and I knew she could afford it) ,she was a really nice lady but a one time customer! I might add that I only charged her for materials since she was a nice person, I thought. Lesson learned . A lot of people just want a free ride and go where ever they can to get it. Good luck, and I hope that you get the job. LOL the older I get it seems the thicker my skin is getting!
 
Is the client driving a Range Rover, or a big Mercedes--cheap to some is not cheap to all. Is it a bid, or a long time customer. With a long timer, who has a good income rather than cost times as the price, you might want to think about upcharging a little more pocket profit.

Now if its a fixed income type, your still kind of whatever the market will bear, but a lower figure.

I'm kind of saying a bench for daddy warbucks in Manhattan costs more than bench for granny and gramps retired for a while.

If you jsut stick with the times formula you may be losing jobs to others, or extra pocket money to others.

Just my 2 cents, but I like to sell things, not everyone is comfortable doing this. If cost times works, go for it :)
 
well scott these folks are somewhat short income, they get housing and food plus a monthly salary, not sure what house and food is worth these days in my part i built my house and pay my own bills.. but there cash input was under 30 k last year for two people.. so they are getting a fair deal in my eyes and i think if they take it i will at least make a fair wage if things go as i plan:)
 
If you are happy and think the deal is fair, then it is. Proud of you for coming up with a price you can live with. Other people get to make the decision if the price is what they can live with. No one can make that decision for others.
 
I usually don't say much on the forum but I've been interested in the different opinions on this thread so here goes. Some of you know that I moved across the state about a year and a half ago, built a new shop and started over. Pricing jobs has been difficult for me here because there are some people in the cabinet business over here who will cut your legs out from under you on pricing. For example, I priced out a job at $16500 for a whole house full of cabinets and another guy quoted the job at 8000.00. Of course I lost the job, the homeowner spent the extra money on something else and then the cabinet guy wouldn't deliver. She came back to me trying to talk me down on the job to the same price as the other guy hoping I would have mercy on her. I helped her cut some things out of the job, spent a lot of time working with her on it but the job went to somebody her Dad knew that owed him a favor. Thus my comment earlier on pricing stuff too cheap as a hobbiest or friend. She had seen our work, wanted us to do the job but price got in her way and of course her spending the extra money. She got crappy cabinets (according to a family member) I haven't seen em.
 
Jim that's one of those customers you love to see leave the shop.:thumb::thumb: And she got what not only she paid for but deserved.:thumb::thumb:
 
yeah i have seen some of jims work and that lady messed up big time..even with the prices i gave these folk i probally wont get it but i didnt give it to them either.. and jay i dont want to get that sign hung around my neck at all..
 
I just wanted to add that this is a great thread, an honest discussion of the subject, thanks everyone, especially Larry for getting the ball rolling on this.

I also wanted to add that the X times materials pricing is a ballpark figure that I use, it is not the actual price the customer pays, but a fast an easy way to get in the right price range, from there you have to drill down deeper to come up with an estimate, not a quote, but an estimate.

I can look at a job, like the shelving unit job and say it will take 10 sheets of the expensive poly plywood, each sheet is $70, so 5 times that is $3500 and I know that will cover my costs fairly well, but that is not a quote, but when I say that out loud to the customer their reaction will tell me if I need to even bother with a quote.

Cheers!
 
One thing with a cash challened customer, you might want to feel them out for a price range. Such as "well Mr and Mrs a lot of benches I build are in the $X to X+$500 price range. Would something like that be comfortable for you?"

The "would something like that be comfortable for you" is a polite way to ask if they have the money, because a lot of people will not admit to being cash challenged, if you just tell them a price.

If they say yes, close the deal and say I can start this afternoon, (or whenever) and start taking measurments for the shelves. Assume you have the job, and yo probably will have it.

If they say no, it's not comfortable then yo know they cannot afford it, and if you need the work (pocket cash) you can continue to feel them out. Such as, "well maybe I could use a less expensive wood, and etc, how about $X minus whatever dollars."

This is not haggeling, it is finding out what the customer can afford, and using it to your and their benifit. In a frendly manner.

Now, I would not recomend trying this on a high income individual or a big corporate type business. But for those you think might not be able to afford what they want, it lets you be in the drivers seat a little more with your estimate.

If you sense the person is trying to hagle you, meaning not answering in good faith to get the price ultra low, I'd probably pass, because trying to collect from some people is a painful process, and haglers in my opinion try to find stupid reasons not to pay. "Oh the drawer shimmys when it comes out making my $3,000 kitchen knife set vibrate, I can't have that and so I'm not paying"...

But for a true low cash challenged potential customer, they may just tell you what you need to know.
 
larry merlau said:
i went back refigured this up done some more research and came up witha figure i felt ok with and dropped them the quote will see how it shakes out.. but thanks for all of this discussion and i am trying to make a small living at this in one form or another.. last year i was asked to work for a guy in another state that i could have made more and learned more at the same time i hated to turn him down, he was in a bind and had obligations with this amp so i was in catch twenty 2.. so stu, i hear you and am going to do my best to change things this year. but i still need to eat sometime.. so with all the help here i will tell you what i quoted this at for these sorta friends and you can discuss or scold me if you like but i will do things differently next time if ther eis one i doubt they take this if they do then i know they really do appreciate my quality of work ...

bench-64" wide, 21" high, 19" deep with a storage area under the lid with 2 partitions-unfinished soft maple-550
shelf-64"wide, 7" high, 12"deep- unfinished soft maple-225
Click to expand...

Larry - there is nothing at all wrong with this. At the risk of sounding like I am contradicting myself - I saw BRAVO to you..

There are many perspectives to the situation - what you did here fit perfectly with the situation.

One thing I am a believer in is something I call "Situational Ethics". I think I make up the term, but I do believe that we need to adapt and be flexible to whatever situation we are faced with. It is the situation that drives the decision - within reason.

I still stand on what I said above - as a baseline to work from.

Even when I had my franchise business I had a customer or two that I would "take care of". A school teacher - lost her husband in a tragic fatal accident - two kids - a mortgage - desperate. Many times I would repair stuff for her and not bill her at all. Other customers - paid $125 first hour, $125 minimum, and $90 per hour after that.

The way we learn - is through experience.

For a family living on $30,000 income - me as a hobby shop, with no overhead - I would do what you did.
 
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