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Thread: table saw advice needed

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Catalunya
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    4,632

    table saw advice needed

    Hi guys.

    I've been thinking about getting a table saw, oddly enough when I commented the idea to LOML she said "you want it, so why don't you buy it?
    Unfortunately the TS choice here is rather limited, you can get junk machines or you have to get expensive profesional combined machines which start at 2500€, Sawstop is out of the way because they don't distribute in Europe, so finally after searching I found this model ( see pics) and specs which I think could be a candidate.

    What makes me wonder is that I found another one with same specs and appearance for the same price but under a different brand and colours. (see pics)Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	85979Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	85980 After some search I found that they are the saem machine, and that they are made either in China or Taiwan. but if the next step is a Hammer K3 Basic that costs 3.400€ versus 1.600 that these cost I am completely lost. I guess that the chinese ones will need some fine tuning and adjustements but for a hobbyist will be enough...?

    Questions: Do you think it would be a good starter? is 3hp enough power? Any advice you can give me will be appreciated.

    Specs.

    3hp AC 240V single phase ( I do not have 3 phase at home)
    4000 rpm
    disc diameter 250mm with 30mm shaft (9.84"- 1.18")
    cutting depth at 90 : 83mm (3.26")
    cutting depth at 45: 44mm (1.73")
    cast iron top 680x800mm ( 26.77" x 31.49")
    1250mm (49.21") aluminium built in sled with bearings
    Sled Travel length 1655mm (65")
    Parallel cut to fence 620mm (24.40")
    total weight 240Kg.
    Last edited by Toni Ciuraneta; 09-18-2014 at 08:27 AM.
    Best regards,
    Toni

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
    web site:http://www.toniciuraneta.com
    I also dream of a shop with north light where my hands can be busy, my soul rest and my mind wander...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Delton, Michigan
    Posts
    17,472
    toni, you say that saw stop isnt in Europe but stu got one some how? if i was to get a different saw saw stop is what it would be,, after that a slider type saw like the hammer.. but i would do more research for a saw stop toni.. 3hp is fine for power.. the blade can make a saw work well or poor. what about buying here and have it shipped to you?
    If in Doubt, Build it Stout!
    One hand washes the other!
    Don't put off today till tomorrow!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Catalunya
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    Quote Originally Posted by larry merlau View Post
    toni, you say that saw stop isnt in Europe but stu got one some how? if i was to get a different saw saw stop is what it would be,, after that a slider type saw like the hammer.. but i would do more research for a saw stop toni.. 3hp is fine for power.. the blade can make a saw work well or poor. what about buying here and have it shipped to you?
    Hi Larry.

    If I remember well, Stu got his from US and had it shipped to Japan, plus had to pay some custom taxes. Maybe he can chime in about that. Sawstop doesn't sell in Europe because their machines need to be credited with the CE seal which forces them to fulfill certain regulations ( don't ask me what). For the same reason I do not know whether I would be allowed to have one shipped to me from US. Besides problably the shipping cost would kill me, I will make some enquiries though.

    As far as I know if eventually I could do it the cost would be: Price of the saw + shipping + Import VAT 21% + Custom duties (unknown)+ Transport from harbor to home. So the whole think would make it a NO-NO decision (or so I guess) even with the advantage of the currency exchange working on my side.

    I'm also looking for second hand ones, as many woodshops have gone broke due to the crisis, but the ones I find are higher in price and excesive for what I need. Further research has shown me that those chinese ones are the same ones that Grizzly carries (not sure about that).
    The last I've found is this one ( see pics)Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	85982 but I still need to know its power. Unfortunately it is 3 phase 220/380V. I could use it putting a condenser in the motor but they are asking 1.300 for it, and it would need a new fence at least.
    Best regards,
    Toni

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
    web site:http://www.toniciuraneta.com
    I also dream of a shop with north light where my hands can be busy, my soul rest and my mind wander...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tokyo Japan
    Posts
    15,807
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni Ciuraneta View Post
    Hi guys.

    I've been thinking about getting a table saw, oddly enough when I commented the idea to LOML she said "you want it, so why don't you buy it?
    Unfortunately the TS choice here is rather limited, you can get junk machines or you have to get expensive profesional combined machines which start at 2500€, Sawstop is out of the way because they don't distribute in Europe, so finally after searching I found this model ( see pics) and specs which I think could be a candidate.

    What makes me wonder is that I found another one with same specs and appearance for the same price but under a different brand and colours. (see pics)Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sierra-circular-ts-250-rs.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	9.7 KB 
ID:	85979Click image for larger version. 

Name:	show_image_in_imgtag.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	26.7 KB 
ID:	85980 After some search I found that they are the saem machine, and that they are made either in China or Taiwan. but if the next step is a Hammer K3 Basic that costs 3.400€ versus 1.600 that these cost I am completely lost. I guess that the chinese ones will need some fine tuning and adjustements but for a hobbyist will be enough...?

    Questions: Do you think it would be a good starter? is 3hp enough power? Any advice you can give me will be appreciated.

    Specs.

    3hp AC 240V single phase ( I do not have 3 phase at home)
    4000 rpm
    disc diameter 250mm with 30mm shaft (9.84"- 1.18")
    cutting depth at 90 : 83mm (3.26")
    cutting depth at 45: 44mm (1.73")
    cast iron top 680x800mm ( 26.77" x 31.49")
    1250mm (49.21") aluminium built in sled with bearings
    Sled Travel length 1655mm (65")
    Parallel cut to fence 620mm (24.40")
    total weight 240Kg.

    Just so you know, SawStop is also made in Taiwan.

    I bought my 3hp Industrial SawStop from a vendor in Canada, it cost me about $5400 to my door, all in, the saw etc, shipping, tax, and local delivery.

    Best money I have spent in a long time, that saw is just a pleasure to use every time I use it.

    How old are you Toni? Buy the saw you want, stretch your budget, wait a little longer, sell something, but whatever you do, buy the saw you want, and it will be the last saw you ever buy. Buy one that is not quite what you want, and you will be looking for something better all the time, and you will regret not buying the better tool. We all know this, as we have all done this, so learn from our mistakes and don't settle for the lesser saw.

    Does that mean the Hammer or the SawStop, I don't know, but don't throw your money away on a piece of junk that you have to fiddle with to get it to run right every time you use it, you will hate it.

    That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

    Cheers!
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
    William Arthur Ward

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    GTA Ontario Canada
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    12,256
    Toni just so you know the responsibility for compliance under CE mark is on the importer. So any item that requires CE certification of some sort, when imported the importer needs to satisfy the declaration requirements. There are ways around it if you were a business you can get a waiver for a single device as a evaluation item but that is complicated. Usually the manufacturer will supply the importer with the required documentation to satisfy the CE requirements, it does not always mean they have to submit a unit for test, they are allowed to self certify assuming they know or have done tests themselves to satisfy the requirements. Good luck with the shopping. You reminding me of the dilemma I used to experience in SA when it came to access to the bounty we have here in North America.
    cheers

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Delton, Michigan
    Posts
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    i will second stu's thoughts on the get what you want veiws.. what i have is doing well for me but the saw stops have become the go to saw now days for safty features and they are a good saw.
    If in Doubt, Build it Stout!
    One hand washes the other!
    Don't put off today till tomorrow!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Thomasville, GA
    Posts
    5,994
    I'm in total agreement with getting what you want in a new table saw. There's no question about the safety features of SawStop and I looked at it last year when I was ready for an upgrade. But, sticker shock got to me along with the cost of replacing the brake and blade if an incident occurs. Reading that there have been false triggers of the brake concerns me as well.

    One of the main things I was looking for in a new table saw was a good riving knife implementation. After reviewing several options, I ended up buying the Grizzly G0690. I've been totally satisfied with its performance as well as the ease with which one can swap between the riving knife and blade guard assembly.
    Bill Arnold
    Citizen of Texas residing in Georgia.
    NRA Life Member and Member of Mensa
    My Weather Underground station

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    1,448
    I have been very happy with my MiniMax saw and other machinery made in Italy (actually San Marino - a tiny city-state within Italy). I know they have dealers throughout Europe. Their machines are often copied, and the pictures you showed look a lot like the low end MiniMax machines. The safety approach is to allow use of the saw without getting close to the blade - the rip fence is the last choice option once you have a slider, rather than the most important feature. See my tutorial on sliders at www.solowoodworker.com/mm/slider.html

    If for some reason I had to give up my slider, I would probably get a Saw Stop. Their professional saws are very good quality and a pleasure to use, as Stu points out.

    I have some Grizzly equipment, much of which is made in Taiwan. My opinion of Grizzly is that happiness depends on the specific model - some are great (like my 14 inch bandsaw) and others are just acceptable - rather than saying "Grizzly is a great brand," I would say that "Grizzly has some great products."
    Charlie Plesums, Austin Texas
    (Retired early to become a custom furnituremaker)
    Lots of my free advice at www.solowoodworker.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    No, not all of SoCal is Los Angeles!
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    9,076
    I will answer a little more philosophically although Stu touched on my main point. Given your choices of cheap or upper end I would definitely hold out for upper end and I will give you my reasons. Bear in mind that I use a tablesaw for nearly EVERY project I work on and my design/methods process is very tablesaw-centric.

    1. An inexpensive basic contractor saw can be coddled into a usable machine for many tasks but, the complexity and stability requirements of a slider would potentially make a cheap one a nightmare.
    2. I will be 60 in a few months and never want to replace my tablesaw again.
    3. Like a quality knife versus a poor one in the kitchen, a quality power tool is safer than a sub-standard one.

    I did end up with a Saw Stop due to just such an opportunity as you now have. I carefully looked over sliders but, given my space and already established methods of work I opted for the Saw Stop. The price was about the same as other competitors saws of approximately the same quality but, without the safety feature.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C. Clarke

  10. #10
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    Jul 2011
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    The Gorge Area, Oregon
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenn bradley View Post
    the complexity and stability requirements of a slider would potentially make a cheap one a nightmare.
    This is worth repeating. You can join the Felder Owners Group on yahoo and search for "alignment" and quickly find that (although rare) even the higher end units aren't immune to issues here and that a poorly aligned slider is a giant pain. I love my Hammer but the slider is a smidge high and for some uses that can be annoying (and I haven't been brave enough to try to fix that yet, because once you touch it wheeeee days of fiddling )

    Not sure on that other one. I would minimally want a solid base saw (that one looks plenty ok there) with somewhat modern safety features including at least a good riving knife (which I don't see) and optionally an overhead guard (easy enough to retrofit so not critical). A decent fence is also somewhat critical although can be fairly easily retrofit.

    If its a simple saw and you see a 3 phase one in the 3HP range on the used market you can likely get a VFD for ~300 euro to do the power conversion (not sure over there as I suspect the availability is worse, but here you can easily find a 3HP vfd for under $300, worth checking into anyway). The documentation is generally poor (and I'm not sure how comfortable you are with arcs and sparks) and above ~3HP the price starts to get prohibitive so that generally sets an upper cap on cost. I also saw "simple saw" because some of the electronics on some of the combo machines and fancier saws (like the felder units) are complicated and can't easily be run downstream of a VFD. Basically if its a motor and a switch your ok, if it has a blade brake, etc.. you'd have to wire around all that and go directly to the vfd which gets more involved. Not as sure about all 3phase motors being runnable easily with a condensor (capacitor for us yanks ) my rough understanding is that sometimes it works and sometimes you burn out the windings depending on the specifics of the motor.. starts to get a bit outside my knowledge zone.

    Charlie, you are a font of knowledge today - I didn't know San Marino was still a micronation very interesting!

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