how do we fix this? PLEASE READ

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. The forum seems to be getting away from a lot of woodworking and on to things like cooking, beer making, etc. My honest opinion is if your not a every day contributer you seem to be on the outside. I have not posted a lot but when I do I feel I get no where the response that other "regulars" do. It does keep me from posting. Do I like the forum? You bet I do. I check in 3 or 4 times a day and learn a lot. Please dont take this as all negative, just my opinion.
 
ya know ,there are some posters, that feel stupid asking simple questions, so they don't participate in certain threads.
Me, not wanting many to know how inexperienced I really am, use pms to get simple answers, mostly because Im embarrassed?, but also so I don't get 15 answers and feel like Im insulting someone if I don't use or agree with their answer.

there are so many reasons, but feeling the need for others to get involved in your thread is silly.

I post my projects to share. I appreciate kind words, but I don't get upset if no one says anything.

sayer, you need to post up some of your work. You tackle some interesting projects, people appreciate those threads, doesn't matter how many respond.
 
Every forum that I have been a member of (over a wide range of subjects) has it's certain number of "regulars" that participate more than others. I don't think that makes them a click by any means. They do get to know each other better than the other members and have taken the time to meet on occasion. I for one found another hobby over the past couple summers that has kept me from posting as much here however lately I'm finding myself checking in here more often and even picking up a few more tools recently. I probably enjoy this forum more than any other I've ever been part of. It feels like home and the people here have always been kind and friendly. I even went to one of those "gatherings" once not really knowing anyone, only to find the best group of strangers I could have imagined.
I tend to post my own projects or ask questions for my own needs rather than ask about other members projects. I'm not a real "social" person but I try as much as I can.
As far as a moderator position....I guess I assume it takes more time than I have to give. Maybe I'm wrong. I honestly don't know how much time it does take up.
I do know that I hope to be more active than I have over the past couple summers. I actually kind of miss being on here. Not that I have much experience to offer but feeling like "one of the guys again" (no offense Carol). No it's not a "Good ol boys club" but anyone can be part of what is here anytime. I hope to do more of that.
 
I'm guilty of being one of those people that come in and can ask a question or post something that I might be working on but don't add to other posts. If I don't know the answer, I just don't say anything. I'm not one to post just to see my name on the screen. I needed help with my tablesaw adjustment and input about home built router lifts. I got the answers I needed and thank you all that did respond.

I'm just now getting back into woodworking for the enjoyment of it. For the last 5 years woodworking was just basic handyman stuff done for others. Whether kitchen cabinets, bathroom vanity, or a child's art easel, it is usually on somewhat of a schedule and thus takes some of the enjoyment out of woodworking for me for me. As a retired person, most of what I do in the shop is primarily aimed towards an income.

I do need to learn how to post photos again... It helps with what is being talked about. If I remember correctly, there is a tutorial posted somewhere.... This site isn't broken, it is as others have mentioned due to "life" getting in the way.

Sorry for the rambling.......
 
Hey y'all,

I've been around here 'almost' from the beginning when we had the mass exodus from SMC. I've got accounts on more forums than I can shake a stick at. I even found one about turning which I joined years ago... so long ago that I forgot about the email account which they had on file. Luckily I still 'own' that account, and my computer is smarter than I am, and remembered the password to It so I could retrieve the one for the forum. I watched the video I wanted to see ,checked a couple of posts about this and that, and haven't a) contributed or b) worried about going back. I know the admin, have met him in person in fact, but I doubt he remembers meeting me. My friends here, however, I keep in touch with. We've all shared so much over the years, we're much more of a community than just a forum.

Other notable forums are following out model to a degree, albeit with much more of a corporate atmosphere. I've visited them, got a feel for the forum... didn't invest much or make many connections.

I wouldn't worry about the type of content we share... the point is we share it. I'm foot to the floorboard most days for my job, but I almost always take 5 minutes in the middle of a run and check for new posts here. I may not reply, but I think about what I read and will reply when I get home.

It is the end of the summer, folks schedules are getting back into the daily grind again, school activities do get in the way, and the sports seasons etc... that's nothing new. If anyone is truly concerned about content of Any sort, be it construction, old iron, new iron, vortex related, knuckle dragging, music, food, OT, or forum related... well, Post something. Get involved!

As for the recent acclimation election... that's a first, but it isn't a bad thing. we had 5 slots open, and 5 volunteered. Done deal. If you want to have competition and not just replace the Mods with other Mods... then get the word out earlier, talk about it, shout from the virtual rafters... lack of exposure had a lot to do with things I think. I was just about to post my usual reminder about elections, but had to run to work. The next day we had a thread about elections.

OK, I'm off to Syracuse, Cortland, Ithaca, Horse Heads, back to Ithaca, Syracuse and home again. See you in 8 or 9 hours.
 
Well as a Newbie to this forum but I am a member of several forums, I was invited here an I invited Michael Stafford here. I told him I joined here an I post here, we both are looking for a forum where the polical or religion discussion doesn't happen. As any one can see in my post I encourage everyone from the comfort zones an after several PMs by several members, I begin to think this forum is not for me. (Remember you asked) there is some members think they can tell you how to post an what to post or they want to censer my post an this just makes me mad (an yes I been nice). I am NOT POLICALLY CORRECT PERSON AN NEVER WILL I tell it as I see it As everyone can see I do build threads an try to help others I use to do pens an cutting boards but that not what i'm doing. Can I spell NO I can't an a few members PMs me to let me know an wants me to correct it well NO I'm not. So here one for everyone is there members her I would love to meet , the answer is Yes there is some an there is some I walk away from.
Most of the forums I'm on yes there is a slow down but there is members that are posting as I told one Mod in Pm maybe its time for me to go, when I see people post things Made out of Pine I will encourage them to get some Maple or Walnut or even Cherry an try it well the PMs still come in about that one so maybe its time for me to leave I don't know but something got to give, an Yes I know I can rub some people wrong I'm part of the buddies system. I do love to help others an yes I even send wood to members that can't get it. I want to invite others here but not right now some will be upset when a foreign language gets posted so need to invite them here yet.
 
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Count me among those who don't believe anything is broken. There are several woodworking forums where people share tips and tricks and show off their projects. We don't offer anything unique in that respect. Sometimes I see the same project on several sites....nothing wrong with that, I've done the same thing. I'm a woodworker, a turner, a tool junkie, and a wood hoarder and when I make something interesting it gets posted here. I also enjoy seeing the things others make, but it's been a while since I built anything because I've been busy doing other things ...and that's OK too. Most people aren't one dimensional. The thing some folks find off-putting is exactly what I like about our site, and that is the fantastic variety of other interests our members bring to the table and share with us.
Without this site I never would have purchased a smoker and learned how to do 3-2-1-ribs, brisket, pork butt and atomic buffalo turds. I wouldn't have a clue what a PID is and I wouldn't have filled my cooler up with hot water to sous vide the best steak ever, or taken guitar lessons or pulled my watercolor paper and paints out of storage to start painting again, or collected boxes and scrounged flooring cut offs for fingerboards on cool cigar box guitars. I wouldn't have a clue about how to home brew an India pale ale or realize that pumpkin spice beer is really mostly made with squash. I would not have a welder and be learning how to weld.....and the list goes on. I came here for the woodworking and for that, we are as good as any other place, but for me the extra's keep this place lively and interesting. I like Vaughn's analogy to the bar....here's a place where everybody knows your name. Ya can't beat that.
 
Well I'm not real talkative (compared to Rob :thumb:) but, I'll give it a go. I did not respond to the call for mods this time around since I have been one a few times and wanted to let some new blood in. I do come here for the woodworking. I know we have started metal working, music and even food sub-forums and that's fine. I feel there are more focused forums for those things (I take pictures of my work but, don't want a "camera" sub-forum here for example . . . maybe we already have one???) however, I do tend to sort those out of my visits so my appearance there, as in wood turning, would be minimal.

I can relate to Fred H on the sometimes-lack of responses to threads but, I know that some folks only look at some sub-forums just like I do. It is a little troubling when you see 67 views and not one post in response to a thread but, if the thread doesn't inspire people to comment, that in itself is a comment. I do get a kick out of it when I post something I think people will really like and get :cricket: . . . . and then I will post something that I think is totally incidental and get 137 responses :rolleyes:. I would like to see more activity. I probably get a little annoying when I start posting every little thing I am doing around the shop but, I am just trying to shake it up a bit. We can't all be building something all the time and I enjoy a forum where the religion and politics (or lack thereof) get checked at the door.

This place still beats the tar out of any other woodworking forum I visit so . . . , ever onward . . . , endeavor to persevere.
 
I'll add my agreement to the statement that nothing here is broken. If someone visits here and thinks we aren't doing things "right", it's their privilege.

One thing I learned a long time ago is that folks work more efficiently if they feel they have some freedom to use a different way to get from point A to point B. I had people working for me for most of my life. For the first few years, I'd give direction for a task and for every step. If someone was deviating, I'd point it out and 'get them back on track'. One of my guys was retired military and came to me one day to discuss a project. In the course of our chat, I realized how much I always tried to micro-manage everything. I learned a lesson and quit being concerned about what happened between points A and B and let my folks get there on their own, but always knowing they could come to me if necessary.

It's great to see how different folks here get from point A to point B in projects. I've lost count of how many times I've thought to myself, "Well, I would have done that a bit different, but I can understand why he/she did it that way." The next time I do a similar thing, I might find myself changing my thought process because of what I've seen here.

I participate to a lesser degree on other forums, depending on the subject matter. As of late, I've been doing a little on a couple of general woodworking forums just to see how they operate. I'm on IAP because I've been learning about stabilizing, casting and making pens and stoppers. I'm on a woodturning forum infrequently mainly for research, since I get a lot of information on turning right here.

I'm happy here and hope nobody wants to throw me out!
 
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WOW - that was too much to read right now - but I will read it later.

The WOODWORKING - forum, NOT, just this one - is in a state of decline.

??SHOULD?? - we go balls to the walls to revive the day that has gone by - no.

Norm Abrams didn't do it - and nobody has replaced him --- WHY --- Well that season has ended.

What is NEEDED here as well as in other places is a MISSION STATEMENT!! WHAT are we? WHO are we? How do we operate?

That all takes analysis - on data collected. Sound familiar? Facebook does it - You tube does it - twitter does it. AND the benefit from it.

Is this a woodworking forum - maybe!

SOOOOOO ---- *********************

WHAT - does this place WANT to be?

1) WOODWORKING forum?
>> If that is the goal they revamp the place.
>>> Then, this is NOT a Leo place. Leo is into much more than wood - but Leo does love wood. Leo is a techie kinda guy
>>> I suspect that Leo is NOT alone --

>> IF the total emphasis is to be **WOODWORKING** - than be prepared for a further and sharper decline in participation.

2) Is this a social group where woodworking is a common, but not only interest?
>> Then - again a little restructuring MAY be in order
>> Do NOT eliminate, but restructure the emphasis on woodworking.
>> What are we doing to attract the younger women that enjoy the workshop?

3) There needs to be a serious effort into data collection and analysis
>> What is working and what is NOT?

>> Establish some goals >> Based on a central theme - MISSION STATEMENT

>> Have some measurements

4) The world is a changing place - interests change - methods change.
>> - Are we on the Mobile devices?
>> Do we "fit" into the world of those we want to attract?



***** Don't Sweat the small stuff ******

YES - ABSOLUTELY - this is a cliquey place.
Forget it - there is not a dang thing you can possibly do about it.
It's natural - it's normal - and you cannot change it.

***** Don't Sweat the small stuff ******


*********************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************

FUNNY this has come up.

Just recently I was thinking - MAN - I wish I could find a place that was more suited to what I want to do.

*** I want a place where it was public enough that OUTSIDERS could see the posts and pictures. BUT - these frums are closed out to the outside world - we want to "protect" our stuff too much

*** I want a place that is demographic in nature - Family Shines at that - that is the power this place has.

*** I want a place where traditional is NOT the MAIN focus - I want to EXPAND - EXPLORE

*** I want COLOR - painting - glazing COLOR - with WOOD - but ALSO - HDU - Steel - Almuninm - Cloth - Rubber - Ceramic - Corian - Wood - Plastic.

*** I was to see LASER - CNC - Computer CAD Graphics - Corel - Photoshop

Yes I also want finger joints, dovetails, miters. But PLEASE - do that on CNC as well as the traditional.

*** I want to know about ArtCAM - BOBcadCAM - Vectric - and all the freebies.

*** AND - yes - the cooking, sewing, travel, social - yes yes to ALL of it.

*** I want the crafts - but not just wood crafts,

Soooooo > In essence - most of the woodworking forums I frequent, ans pretty narrowly focused - toooo narrow.

*******************************************************************************************
*******************************************************************************************


So - LARRY - man you are AWESOME - you asked the question - that is a huge step forward.

My first suggestion is this ONE thing


Create or renew the MISSION STATEMENT
 
I don't post often, but I do visit often, usually daily. I started woodworking as a hobby, and for me, it will remain a hobby thru my retirement years. One of the biggest rewards I have discovered in this fine adventure is the fellowship shared by those interested in woodworking. A very creative bunch of souls from such a wide variety of backgrounds. I've been a welder, a sailor, and hvac mechanic. It's the community that I like, as group of folks, and I'm making a sweeping generalization here, I have seldom seen such a diverse group of friendly people. Hang out at a woodworking store, strike up a conversation, and one will soon be inviting a new friend over to check out a project or a tool over a cup of coffee Rich, poor, fine artist, or trinket maker, we are a community, that share the joy of wood and creativity. I have never been able to make music, I enjoy listening to quite a variety tho, and yet, I really enjoyed Vaughns posts of his adventures filling in for a friend in a band. Carol is always so creative and social in her post, I always take the time to read what she has to say! And so many others! This is a great community and I enjoy it thoroughly, all of it! I haven't touched alcohol in nearly thirty years, yet I'll still read about the successes and failures of those of you who are creative enough to put a new twist into brewing! Drink enough of your creation, and who knows what you'll do to a piece of wood once you feel safe enough break out the tools! : )
So for me, I love it here, if I want just solid tech info, well, thats everywhere! But here, you get community, a social network of common interest that evolves around woodworking and the wide variety of people who enjoy it.
I guess I'll just keep hanging around till I die or ya shut er down! : ) Thank you all for all you share!
 
On the way back from the store I was thinking some more about this.

I was a moderator of an electronic drum forum for many years and saw this same pattern.

In some ways there seems to be too much expectation.

Think about it. 30 years ago if you were a member of a car (insert any club/group here) club, you had monthly meetings in which generally less than 25% of the total members would show up and only at special events would you get higher particapation.

Even being a member of a church group. Do you really talk or expect to talk with everyone everyday?

The internet allows instant access 24 hours a day, but is it really reasonable to expect all the memebers to stay online every waking moment to be able to join in on any discussion that comes up or even to show up everyday and participate?

The only way to get continuous saturation of the forums is to have alot more members. But is that a good thing or a bad? The more members there are means there will be more say 'turners' and then the 'turners' will just congregate in there own "space", the CNC folks will congregate with the CNC folks. So you won't end up with a family of people but a bunch of smaller pods of people that create thier own clicke.

Also, If you have 10000 active members posting, your response to a post could disappear down 30-40 posts within 30 minutes. On this post alone, how many folks really have the time to start at the beginning and read through every post in this thread or will most likely just skim through them and then post something at the end? Just consider if every active member of WWF were to respond to this thread alone, how long would it take to read through everyones comments and would they actually get read?

If you become a large member forum like LJ's, you could end up getting 100 projects posted a day. How could anybody keep up with that unless they are retired? And how many projects would get posted and end up not getting any responses, just because of the large numbers?

Also, with a large membership you end up more likely to attract folks "out of synch" with general phylosiphy of the forum and you end up with people blocking other people (i.e. LJ's.)

If someone finds the site and discovers that the generally rules are "if you join, you must post projects; if you join, you must respond daily; if you join, you must expect to vote in elections and if not, you are not welcome because you are not being a true family member and participating daily."

As with any group of people, we have times when we are busy with life (that pay the bills) and other times when we can sit down for a few hours and read and relax at this site or others.

I am in the mind set that nothing is broken, and just that perhaps the expectation is little too high. Simply put: "We are just experiencing life."

Rob
 
This is a healthy and positive discussion, just what you'd expect here.

I look into the forum every day, maybe more than once.
I haven't posted any projects for a long while because there simply haven't been any worthy ones. The last three years of work and other demands have been all-consuming and my shop's in such a state it would take a day to clear a path before I could start a sizeable project.

I haven't put forth as a moderator, since I know I couldn't give the time it deserves.

My opinion is, as others have said so well, I don't think it needs fixing, but more traffic and positive feedback is needed and I'll try to do my part.
 
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For me it is a matter of time. Between work, family, work around the house, etc there is very little time for anything else. I wish I could be around more and be more active -- but live makes it so I barely have time to make sawdust much less read the forums. I try to drop by once or twice a week, but lately I haven't even managed that.
 
I guess my 89.75 years old is catching up to me. I thought I added to this post 2 days ago. I know I wrote it all up in Word to copy into the post. You ladies and gentlemen are really in luck; it appears that I forgot to hit the "Post Quick Reply" box.

Summary of that wonderful post you all missed:

I like it here; I have not been to another woodworking site for several years.

I cannot believe how my free time has diminished since Myrna died. I think I had a lot more free time when I worked full-time.
For several times in a row I considered volunteering to be a MOD. Then I would look and see some great names were already on the docket and I would not add mine.
I volunteered for you to sign me on any time the volunteer list got short. I did enjoy being a MOD and it is not a time consuming job. I would be glad to do it again. I hope that members who have never been a MOD give it a try.

Our small sub-forums are great. I do not have any interest in some of them (I mean I already know how to use a can opener and a microwave; I don't have any musical talent, etc.) so I do not look at them. However, I am sure glad that other members do like them.

Enjoy,
JimB
 
WOW! I've just spent the better part of an hour reading through this thread. Time well spent I feel, even with my hectic schedule. I must agree with the person that said they feel like they had more free time when they had a job.

It was July 28th when my friend Dan passed away. I'm the person that found him in his home. He never married and never had kids. Myself and another friend were/are executors of his estate and he was very generous to us in his will. We are still trying to get his will probated almost 14 months later. My mind has been focused mainly on this task over the past year.

I started a memorial case that will have a couple of his old golf clubs [we were golfing buddies] with a picture of him at the golf course and a short note telling how he was the first member at Trappers Turn Golf Course. I started that project in September of 2013. It is still not finished. Cold weather kept me out of the shop last winter and then being laid up with my sciatica for more than 2 months this summer, kept me from doing anything. I have been trying to catch up ever since.

What does all this have to do with the question Larry posed? Just an example of what might keep any of us from posting or checking in on this forum. LIFE! I haven't participated very much over the past year on this forum. Am I upset with the forum? NO WAY! I've enjoyed this forum almost since it's inception, but looking back at that time, I was being pulled in different directions even back then, which limited my participation.

I haven't checked in very frequently lately, but that doesn't mean I don't like it. I hope to contribute in the near future and even post some pictures of my memorial case, when I finish it. I also like having all of you available when I am wondering how to do something that I may have never done before. I thank you all for that.

Lastly, I hope to have a chance to meet a lot of you. I think the meet and greet started a long time ago on another forum when two guys and their wives [you know who you are] decided to come visit from Michigan. We had a great weekend talking and laughing and enjoying the time we had together. That seemed to inspire others to do the same and I like to think it inspired the "Ambassador" to embark on his many journeys to visit and have face to face meetings with other members.

All in all I think the forum will be fine. I think it's going through a cycle.

Thanks to those who volunteer their time to be Mods and those that keep this forum up and running.
 
Many years ago i found this forum. It was my first and last woodworking forum i needed to find.
Why?
1) name one other where the forum is run and managed entirely by volunteers for and on behalf of the members.
2) where civility rules.
3) where there is no commercial influence distorting posts or comments on service.
4) where you are not graded as a "elite" because you a contributor or where you are treated differently if you financially contribute
5) where the only requirement to join is that you use your own name and be a real person and respect a code of conduct so well thought out (in my opinion) that many organizations even governments could do withreading it.
6)where you are not required to pay dues.
7)where you are not required to post or comment yet will actually get access to an incredible group of people that in my opinion i could never and have never been able to meet in my 56 years and after travel to 1/3 of the worlds countries.
The knowledge and intellect people have here inspires me beyond what i can muster in words to describe.
8) Where if you ask for help to a problem, no matter how often you do, and no matter how difficult you find it to grasp the solution, you will keep getting help.
9) where if you not a single minded person with no other interest other than woodworking and wish to share one of your other interests and inspire others to try something else you can do it feely nd before you know it you actually might have inspired an entire new category of interest others may find just as interesting as woodworking.

Do woodworkers that have such narrow interest so as to only have a singular woodworking interest feel their interest is so fragile and under threat that it cannot compete for participation against something like cooking? Do these woodworkers eat sawdust each day, have no desire to say hey you tried this my family has been making it for three generations, or is this too human for you.

To those that dont want the social side i am at a loss then as to your purpose of participating and posting on a medium that is essentially an element of social media. Are you only interested in self promotion? Are you afraid you may end up making a new friend? Will that shatter your world? Give it a try it may put a rainbow of color back in your grayscale life.

I personally only spend time here. Its my only internet point of social contact. Despite setting up a facebook page, i do not use it. From time to time i may accept a friend request from a woodworker here simply because i do not wish to offend them.But i dont do anything else there.

So am I chatty do i post long posts YES. I can type with tools that allow me to converse rather that blurt a sounbite of 100 characters. I cannot stand a mere "atta boy" after the person posting has taken the time and effort to share there build. I reach out as best i can as a human being with a bit of grey matter and a voice.

To those that feel there are clicks well i challenge that point. If click means;
you are part of a group of people that value the real friendships it is possible to establish here,
You post regularly and try as hard as humanly possible to make everyone feel equally as welcome as you yourself experienced that first day you joined
If click means you value meeting human beings and hey giving a grown man a bear hug when you finally get to meet them for no other reason than the fact that you both are overjoyed at finally meeting each other and without words a hug is highly human and appropriate
If click means spending in excess of $1000 to get to meet people you never met before and travelling to another country to do it.
If click means opening your door to a stranger your kids dont understand why you doing it,
If click means you make the effort to find out the history of a forum like this and how it came about
If click means you ask hey what does it mean to be a mod, what do i have to do to do my part to keep the roof up
If click means being allowed and tolerated to have a life rant about something thats got to you and you need to let off some steam with your buddies in the club
If click means sharing some humor and allowing those with a good sense of it to lighten your day
If click means carring and being of comfort to someone going through severe loss and obviously needing some support from friends to get through a tough period
If click means being welcome to participate even when your health has meant you have had to give up woodworking

Then my friends click it is. But i would prefer the word Member of the family woodworking forum. :)

I only speak for myself, but i have learnt from members here more than i can possibly describe. More than info on woodworking or beer making or techie stuff or musical instruments or cooking. I have met people here that i consider to be of incredible value to me to be able to converse with. To ask questions of both publicly and privately that have personally helped me look at some issue whether it is practical as in woodworking problem or a life outlook and value issue and form an alternative way of looking at that problem. In short i feel these same people have permitted me to overcome some of the incredibly damaging effects of growing up in a screwed up place.

The only criteria that is needed in my opinion is that one needs to be prepared to venture out of the door and your comfort space and well be honest .

So when you find someone that you observe a uncanny connection with on the forum, reach out you might just find your world changes for the better and you experience something very special.
Acceptance of you for who you are as a normal part of the human race. No need to try be perfect or better than the next.no need for false pride just put you hand out as you would when introduced to someone and let the rest take its course, you just might find your life changes so much you cannot believ the impact a place like this can have.

Thats my heartfelt 2cents and sermon for the day
Chatty Rob

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
 
What is a Clique any way?

I have said it previously - it is a natural - normal - and expected --- occurrence.

When someone joins a group, but they do not yet know anyone - it APPEARS - that they are separate from that group. In essence they are - but not on purpose or by design.

When that new person - notices that the older group - is conversing with each other - it "seems" as though the older group is "into" each other and the new person is seperate.

SOOOO - what's up with THAT? ---- nothing abnormal.

The group of people that already know each other will, by human nature, gravitate to each other. They do not yet know the new person, and the new person also does not yet know the group. So - naturally, there is some level of inhibition on both sides.

Let some time go by - get some interaction going on - then - by some stroke of a magic wand, called social interaction, the new person gradually becomes part of the "clique".

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Then another new person comes into the fold and notices the "cliqueness" of the place.

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Can we somehow make the cliqueness go away?

If you can figure that out - please publish it - and you will get rich.

You could probably also find a way to loose weight - REALLY - not just for a few months.
 
Well, if I'm included in the "clique" opinions (though I don't think I used that word) to all those who feel I shot their dog, I deeply and humbly apologize. The original question was for opinions and I provided mine. I stated before I really like this place, for many of the reasons others offered up. My other opinions remain unchanged, though I realize the truthfulness many expressed about that being natural.
 
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