Computers, OS, etc. for CNC

Carol Reed

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Research leads me into computers and operating systems. Not to mention spindles. Or software.

OK, Leo. I am curious. I could not find computer and OS specs for VCarve Pro. Windows only or also Apple?
I am thinking VCarve Pro bundled with PhotoVCarve. Also Mach 3 for control software.

And then there are spindles. I am looking for something tons quieter than a woodworking router and software controlled RPM would be a joy. So would eventual tool changing capability.

Thoughts?
 
Jason got you the stuff for V-Carve.

Hold off on the PhotoVcarve. We can talk more on PM about that but for now - you don't need to spend any money there - YET.

Now - on the V-Carve Pro. There are only a few features that Pro has over Desktop - look at the comparison chart and make sure it is what you want

This is a comprehensive comparison chart.
http://www.vectric.com/media/docs/products/compare/Cut2D-VCarve-Aspire-Compare.pdf

As to the computer minimum requirements.

V-Carve Pro can now work with 3D reliefs. It cannot "create" anything in 3D.

You can import (1) STL and several Vector Art 3D models. The limitation there is that only one import from other than Vectric supplied models. I don't have V-Carve pro any longer and never had the ability to import 3D reliefs in the versions I had. I am a bit unclear on the limitations.

You can do some 3D relief modifying.

All in all it is a very powerful package. There is a LOT that you CAN do with it.

NOW - to the computer - BECAUSE it IS a lot of graphics - it does take a fair amount of power. It is not as hungry as Solidworks - but then again it is not a full 3D graphics software like Solidworks is. Even so - it DOES benefit from a 64 bit computer.

I am SURE - your Apple will have enough power.

I have no idea about running on Apple. The folks at Vectric are pretty smart and I don't think they would miss the market. I sent the question off the Vectric anyway - I will let you know what their response is. Probable get an answer on Monday - But I would not be surprised to get an answer sooner, as they are monitoring the support lines all the time. They are just amazing folk there in the UK.

The quietest spindles are going to be the water cooled spindles. I don't have any sources of information on comparison. I have seen youtube videos of side by side comparisons - but - I am not yet convinced. I guess the jury is still out on that one. Mine is a 2hp Perske German spindle - air cooled - NOT quiet. Compared to a hand held - I don't think there is much difference in the noise level. It is possible even louder because it has a bigger fan. I think - you will have noise no matter what you do - it's just the nature of the beast. You could fully enclose and sound proof the entire machine.

Mach3 is great.

Remember I use Fanuc and all sorts of industrial controller at work and have seen, and used TONS of machines and controls. Siemens, Yasnac, Fanuc, Haas, Mitsubishi, Heidenhein, Studer, Okamoto, Mazak, Chevilier, Brother, Cobra, Kellenburger, Okuma, CR Onsrud, MaxNC, Larken and Mach3. I have been around!!

Mach3 is Great, not better than the industrial ones, but cheaper - and very operational. I like it to the point where I will be requesting in on a new machine if I go Chinese.
 
Pretty sure there's no Mac version from Vectric - But if you have Parallels or feel like running a VM, if your mac is powerful enough it should handle it just fine.
 
You do NOT need a lot of computer to run Mach3.

I am running on Win XP without any trouble at all.

The computer running my machine is a $40 used computer I got from work when they auctioned off a bunch of computers. I bought a few, just to have backups. They are NOT high end computers. I think the highest RAM is 2 gigs or maybe 1 gig

You can get refurb computers from places like Best Buy - WITH warranty

Here are 6 pages of computers from $89 to $150 - ALL of which will run your machine.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?id=pcat17071&nrp=15&cp=1&sp=+currentprice%20skuidsaas&seeAll=&_dyncharset=UTF-8&ks=960&sc=Global&list=y&usc=All%20Categories&type=page&iht=n&browsedCategory=pcmcat212600050009&st=categoryid%24pcmcat212600050009&qp=currentprice_facet%3DPrice~Less%20than%20%2450^currentprice_facet%3DPrice~%2450%20-%20%2499.99^currentprice_facet%3DPrice~%24100%20-%20%24149.99

I would NOT go crazy on a computer to run the machine. It does not need to be 64 bit.

Monitors, Mouses, Keyboards - ALSO - really cheap - EBAY, Yard Sales, friends, neighbors. People try to get rid of that stuff when they upgrade. I have a nice 17" flat LCD on my machine --- er, I wanna say $15 - or maybe $25

I have 2 - 24" flat screen monitors on my desk. One of them I bartered for by making a sign. I got the monitor AND a nice computer. I broke the computer but kept the monitor. The Dollar value of the monitor is FAR more than the value of the materials I put into the sign.

Computer stuff can be really inexpensive - sometimes.

If yer of the mind that you need to have really nice and powerful computers on your machine - I cannot be of any help there. I am not in that camp. I am a bit of a cheapskate at times. I spend money only where it matters.
 
I'll agree that mach3 doesn't need a ton of horsepower to run your machine. With one caveat: Your machine's speed will be affected by the ability for the computer driving it to pump out pulses if you are driving via parallel port (which i think is still most common but USB seems to be gaining ground, if slowly). In a parallel port driven machine, the computer can only push so many pulses before it tops out - this means your top speed will be affected.

Now - having said that - i have my wifes 10+ year old gateway running my machine just like Leo has - 1gb ram, xp, maybe 1600mhz processor. So not fancy... not fancy in the least. It handles my setup JUST FINE. I just wanted to point out that there is a bottom end when it comes to computers - you want something that was at least kinda speedy 10 years ago. Don't fret on this TOO much, like Leo said. It's a dang old and slow computer that can't handle this stuff. Like something that barely runs XP, for example.


For those interested in the technical reasons - here's why:
My machine tops out at 47,000hz out the parallel port which gets eaten up pretty quickly when you've got microstepping on a low-lead screw. For example, my Z uses 9600 steps per inch. JUST running the Z, tops me out at around 293ipm feed rate. I would never run that fast, but if you consider that in 3D carvings, you're moving all 3 axes at once, and if X and Y take up 2400 steps per inch, you'll quickly see how you can saturate that 47khz.

The painful part is this top speed of the parallel port isn't really published anywhere. I've only been able to test directly by running the parallel port program that mach3 recommends. Not many retailers will let you run an exe to see the parallel port speed so you kinda have to hedge a *little* on the newish side. But again, anything less than 10 years old with a parallel port should work okay. There are some parallel ports that don't hold a true voltage - this is usually laptops that have odd power management but when's the last time you saw a laptop with a parallel port? lol

3D Carving really is where the majority of this will come to light. Between this factor and acceleration, your 3D carving speed will most likely be hitting the ceiling of the driving computer - but there are lots of other factors involved with that, too.


This all changes if you go USB - either via smoothstepper or a native USB breakout board. USB is buffered so you can pile up a fair bit of data pretty quickly and the machine won't be as taxed - this helps relieve your machine from having to be quite so "realtime" functioning at higher speeds. I don't know a TON about the USB stuff yet. I haven't delved into them very much but I do notice that most folks who do run on USB do so on machines that are considerably newer than the one I run mine on - not sure that's a factor or not.
 
Finally got around to checking out Leo's computer link and it bombed, though there are tons of other places to look. Now the question is what features to look for. I confess to not understanding what all the numbers mean. So maybe this is question for Jason. Ideally, what might I look for in terms of speed, capacity, whatever. Refurb computers are not necessary old and I am not as obsessed with spending as little as possible. How does this one sound?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-re...1304420747.p?id=mp1304420747&skuId=1304420747

I have a flat screen in storage. Price is reasonable to me, so no comments there are necessary. Its refurbed, not just used, FWTW. Win 7 seems to be stable enough for this application; Vectric products and Mach 3, dedicated to a CNC. I can reasonably guarantee that it will never be subjected to MS automatic updates! That's what drove me to become a Mac person.
 
I'm of the mind that your design computer and your CNC computer should be separate machines, to put it out there. I find myself drawing things up at night - i wouldn't be out in the shop all the time (and don't need to be for the drawing aspect) so I would prefer two machines. That said, ain't nothin' wrong with one machine if you're okay with that. Just means you can't be drawing while it's running a job, either. I've heard best results when mach3 is pretty much the only thing running when machining.

As for that particular model - it's probably fine but I don't see any mention of a parallel port - if you've chosen your CNC and it requires a parallel port, you *might* be able to get a card to plug in but I've heard more bad stories than good with that. Especially those who try to get a box that plugs into the USB port and somehow converts it to parallel. Unless you get something like a "smooth stepper" board which works with mach3 just fine. I confess I don't know a ton about that aspect - my cnc controller has a parallel port built in.

I think that computer would be fine as a design box if you only want it for 2D and 2.5D machining. A beefier box might do better if you got into 3D modelling much. If it has a parallel port, it's probably overkill for driving the CNC (and not a big problem if it is).
 
If I may, I'd like to jump in here with a quick question. I've been thinking about adding a tablet computer to my CNC so I can set up a job and still have my shop desktop for other tasks. My CNC uses USB, so I assume that would be no issue. The only thing I'd run on the tablet would be UGS or similar gcode sender. Am I on the right track there?

I'll add that I've had no issue running my CNC on a USB port while doing other things on my desktop - just looking at options.
 
@Jason.

The CNC I am looking at will run via Ethernet - no parallel ports, so a newer computer is useful. As for design, I wonder if I can design on my Mac and use a flashdrive to transfer files to the shop? Leo said he shot an email to Vectric to ask about the Mac compatibility. Next thing to look into.

And all this before spending a dime!
 
I tried a USB to Parallel converter and it did not work for me. I am not a computer novice but also not all that savvy either. Maybe it could be made to work.

The parallel port is one reason I run older computers - plus, I am almost as cheap as Jason - mmm - maybe sometimes cheaper.

If you are going to be connecting via a USB port the BOB in the machine control box should also be a USB compatible BOB.

I think - I hope - the CNC machine makers are going to be getting out of the parallel port business.

As to computer power.

I do a lot of 3D work. My machine is an older model when 120 inches per minute was blazing fast. I can honestly say I have run hours on end at 120 inches per minute with CNC files that were 180,000 lines long.

That is on an antique computer running Mach3 on a 12 year old model machine.

The $99 refurbed computer running Mach3 will be fine. That is more computer than I am currently running.

3) .. I do not use my CNC computer for anything else except Mach3. I do have a USB network antenea so that I can send programs wireless to the computer via other computers on the network. At one point it was my main desktop computer. Before that I was running Win98se with Mach3 on an even older computer.

2) .. My shop computer is my old desktop design computer. I use that when I am in the shop. I can do Aspire and CAD - but not solidworks. It is on the network and I will do edits and get online so I can have access while I am in the shop. That is a win 7 machine and will be on the CNC in the next recycling shuffle.

1) .. My main computer (win 8.1) that I program and do CAD and other design stuff is a powerful computer - for now. When it is old - it will finally be used to run my CNC machine.
 
@Jason.

The CNC I am looking at will run via Ethernet - no parallel ports, so a newer computer is useful. As for design, I wonder if I can design on my Mac and use a flashdrive to transfer files to the shop? Leo said he shot an email to Vectric to ask about the Mac compatibility. Next thing to look into.

And all this before spending a dime!

How are you going to plug ethernet into the machine control box?

I did get an answer back from Vectric.

Sorry - the answer is no - not apple compatible.

I don't know anything at all about apple - I have been a pc user all my days.

YES - you CAN use a USB flashdrive.

I use a wireless network and save directly to the CNC machine - or any other place I want to save to that is on the network.
 
If I may, I'd like to jump in here with a quick question. I've been thinking about adding a tablet computer to my CNC so I can set up a job and still have my shop desktop for other tasks. My CNC uses USB, so I assume that would be no issue. The only thing I'd run on the tablet would be UGS or similar gcode sender. Am I on the right track there?

I'll add that I've had no issue running my CNC on a USB port while doing other things on my desktop - just looking at options.

I'm afraid i don't have much experience with that. I'm kind of behind the times when it comes to tablets and USB suitability.
 
Designing on your mac can be done if you have any apps that can export to DXF for 2d stuff. vCarvePro and Aspire will import those just fine. DWG for 3D as well.

The ethernet driven interfaces are cool - I look forward to hearing your experience with those. Things are shifting lately away from parallel (finally) but it seems to be taking a little while to get adoption. Parallel is known, tried and true, and probably simplest. The USB and Ethernet interfaces I've seen are all buffered and that adds a degree of software complexity but I'm sure by now they've got things fairly transparent. Can't wait to hear what you think of 'em once you've got your machine.

One of the nicest things about Vectric's software is that you don't have to draw up things in another CAD program - it has a lot of very powerful CAD functions built in, which would be part of what you'd be paying for in their price. It'd be a shame for you to not be able to take full advantage of that. If it were me, I'd get a cheap throw-away computer to drive the machine and a decent desktop PC to run the CAM software from vectric. I don't know what's out there for Macs as far as CAM goes, but I don't see 'em in the CNC world too often beyond the CAD phase. CAM seems to be mostly PC-dominant, from my very limited experience.
 
For Leo;

The CNC I am considering has a 'smoothing' board in the electronics to connect the machine to the computer. It was designed for that application to make use of newer computers. What I am looking at is the Pro version of the CNCRouterParts model with the Nema34 motors.

http://www.cncrouterparts.com/index.php for more details on the electronics package.

I am planning some relatively serious production of selected products for which I am first developing a marketing strategy. Simultaneously, I am also trying to learn what my learning curve will be. I know I could sub-contract out the CNC work, but I have been there and done that with very expensive results. I couldn't get done what I wanted done because the CNC company decided their way was 'better.' That drove me to buy the ShopBot and I learned I could have it my way at a price I could afford. Sub-contracting is not my vision for a side-line business.

With regard to the computer. I will need to purchase one. I have no old ones hanging around (except for my Acer notebook which I revived with a new battery and it is now dedicated to the Arduino projects). That screen is a bit tiny to do any design work! And it doesn't have enough computing power to run the CNC, given Jason's specs earlier in this thread.

So part of the business plan is to learn all I can about the machine and programming. I thank you all for your invaluable input.
 
The smooth stepper looks to be a good controller, will consider it on my next one. The USB to Parallel adapters don't usually work as the interrupts for parallel pins aren't real time, emulated if you will, and they screw up the timing of the responses to and from the controller. Since steppers run on pulses and frequencies, you can imagine how that will affect the signals being sent. Now if the PC has an open PCIe or PCI adapter slot, you can add a parallel adapter.

Mach 3 I have running on a Pentium 4 currently, I'm updating that to a Windows 7 machine with a Duo Core processor and about 4 GB of ram. It actually runs very well on the Pentium 4 with XP, but since I connect it with dropbox and Box sync software to the internet I decided it was best to update it. Besides it's been locking up from time to time and didn't want that to happen in the middle of a job. I had to order a PCIe Parallel adapter for this PC also, considered adding two so I could have extra signal inputs, but will wait until I actually may need them.
 
NOT A MAC PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So this may be a stupid question or putting my foot in my mouth.
YEARS ago (the last time I remember playing with Mac's), the way files were saved by them was different then your typical Windows machine (seem to remember the format was separate from the data). Is that going to be an issue with saving to USB, or does it use a different protocol (I think I might be remembering floppy stuff)?
I have never had a Mac in my network to test that method (or saving to a Samba server, etc). Couldn't she just save it over the network on the Windows drive? (hopefully no format issues, again)
What about remotely operating the Windows machine (if an old one worked fine, a newer one should be able to VNC and still function as the CNC machine), rather then needing the keyboard, mouse, etc.
 
NOT A MAC PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So this may be a stupid question or putting my foot in my mouth.
YEARS ago (the last time I remember playing with Mac's), the way files were saved by them was different then your typical Windows machine (seem to remember the format was separate from the data). Is that going to be an issue with saving to USB, or does it use a different protocol (I think I might be remembering floppy stuff)?
I have never had a Mac in my network to test that method (or saving to a Samba server, etc). Couldn't she just save it over the network on the Windows drive? (hopefully no format issues, again)
What about remotely operating the Windows machine (if an old one worked fine, a newer one should be able to VNC and still function as the CNC machine), rather then needing the keyboard, mouse, etc.

Files seem to translate just fine, had a mac for work about a year now and not had any issues with using shared or usb drives. I typically use dropbox to sync also, so can get to all the same files on each machine.
 
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