Go east young man - Moving?

The current plan, and I stress the word current, shows an attached 24 x 48 garage with a partition down the center. That partition has a double 3'0" door to the garage. I had planned on bringing the gas heater I now have hanging in my garage/shop along to keep the chill out of the garage. I currently keep mine at 55 all winter. No need to keep the next garage that warm if the tools are in a separate room. The shop area would have its own heat/cooling. I've been looking at the split units offered by a number of manufacturers. Using a heat pump a small to mid sized unit can handle the 560 sf shop area. Toying with the idea of adding a wood burning stove as a supplement to the heat pump.

I have not had to deal with snow dripping of a car in a garage for over 20 years and had forgotten about it. Thinking a floor drain in the garage portion is a good idea. Maybe one of those long ones that sit about a foot inside the door would be something to consider.
 
...I have not had to deal with snow dripping of a car in a garage for over 20 years and had forgotten about it. Thinking a floor drain in the garage portion is a good idea. Maybe one of those long ones that sit about a foot inside the door would be something to consider.

Depending on the locale, a garage floor drain may be illegal, due to the perceived contaminants it can put into the waste water system. I can't have one here, even though I'm on a septic system, and not municipal sewage.
 
Yes, MDOT ran a major campaign a few years ago because contaminants from vehicles entering storm drains are actually a major factor in stormwater pollution after the combined sewer overflow issues are resolved. The company I worked for at the time was managing the program and I was doing all the web work for it. Our previous house built around 1990 had one which ran right out to the roadside ditch (verified because I used some bright green paint diluted to find the outfall.) That would never fly today. Worse my parents' garage has one that goes to a drywell--just a pit filled with large stone. That now runs very slow and is likely filled with silt and lord knows what else.

You need some kind of supplemental heat if you go with a heat pump Even southern Michigan gets cold enough to spend a lot of time below the tipping point on a heat pump. If you are building, look into geothermal instead of the usual gas furnace/AC option. If you are going to be out of town, that could eliminate your need to use propane for heat. Not sure how that could work for keeping house air and shop air separate but maybe a contractor can come up with a cost-effective solution. The major cost is the wells/trenches/pit so maybe separate systems sharing a heat sink? We did have a heat pump system at our old house which used a gas furnace as a backup. We basically didn't use gas for heat above about 32 degrees. We'd still be using HP heat at least during the day until about Christmas, and again by mid-February. Not doing anything like that at this house since we don't plan to stay here long term.
 
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Initially we were planning on gas forced air in the house, gas unit heater in the garage, and the split heat pump unit in the shop. The shop might be only 600sf or less and kept only in the high 50's most of the time. Garage high 40's. House will only be about 800sf.

Geothermal is fascinating stuff, but it sounds like $$$. I'll have to research it a bit more. Having the split unit guarantees the house and shop air are kept separate.

How about a small dry well for accepting run off from the garage floor. We are obviously not talking about a lot of water, just what drops of the cars and a light hosing once in a blue moon. Would that be an issue? Seems to me that would be no different than just hosing down the driveway.
 
The heat pump issue is with the outside ambient temperature. Below a certain point they just can't find enough heat to steal from outside. My parents have a Mitsubishi split system with 6 indoor units and pretty much don't use it for heat for that reason. Their main heat source is a hot water baseboard system with a traditional boiler. Those don't adapt well to being turned on and off. Geothermal is big money up front, but at least a few years ago there were big tax credits and the monthly operating savings can be huge. Back when we thought we'd stay at the old house forever we were looking into it for someday when we had to replace the furnace. Then we had to get a new furnace RIGHT NOW and once we invested in that, then got natural gas service, an air source heat pump made more sense. Shop had a unit heater and at first a big window AC then later the old house AC was reinstalled out there.

Actual garage, we installed a wall heater here. Handy for working on a car or a couple times we've needed garage heat to melt ice buildup off the inside of the wheels on my wife's car which is apparently susceptible to that. The drawback is the humidity it creates since there's no vented exhaust. But it was a fraction of the cost of installing a unit heater for a couple times a year use.

Doubt the drywell would be legal today anywhere around here. Ditches and retention ponds actually do a fair bit of filtering before water gets discharged to natural waterways. Which has me wondering what the county does with the stuff they dig out of ditches when the clean them...wonder if it has to be treated as hazardous waste?
 
Rennie, I don't know much about geothermal either, but have a few friends that have built houses recently. One was a BIG 5000+ sqft house that they "saved" money by not going with geothermal. They regret that now as the heating bills have been very large. (not to mention the $$$ they spent on the McMansion:doh:) Two other couples both built houses that are about 2500 sqft or so and they did go with geo thermal and I think they have a few years before break even, but they plan on being in the houses forever. They are very happy with their systems. With a smaller house like you're talking I wonder if the costs and break even date would be smaller?
 
I don't know anything about the geothermal heat, as we don't have any land to possibly put it on, but I will say this, if the Geothermal is used to heat your floors, in the winter you will love it. We have heated floors in our house here, the floors are warm in certain areas, the living room has two zones, the kitchen and the dining room. We don't get COLD winters here, but cold enough :D We seldom use the AC/heat pump for heat, we just have the floors warm and it is great. It is a system that goes between the subfloor and flooring, it is heated by the same tankless unit that heats our water for the bath etc. The heated floors use a closed look system that has an antifreeze kind of fluid in it, it is very efficient much nicer than hot air blowing around, we only wish we had put it in the bedroom!!

Cheers!
 
I could make a great house out of Peters Barn, but not sure it would be an easy sale when time comes to move out. BUt it sure has the space i would like in a home. LOL

We could work something out Rob. I'd make a farm boy out of you yet!

Seriously, this thread touches on a lot of things we're thinking about these days. We have no plans to move, but I see here a lot of the same things we're looking at to make living here feasible twenty years from now. Home heating is one, and a hybrid system including some wood heat, maybe heat pump and electro-thermal storage could be part of the mix. An important consideration is to have the option of a zero maintenance heating backup if we want to travel during the winter.

Rennie, I like the idea of a semi-connected garage/shop. a simple roofed-in breezeway that keeps the rain and snow off, but could also be a pleasant shaded "outdoor room" with many uses most of the year. Think of it as a covered deck or patio, maybe an outdoor kitchen, maybe even an open air extension of the shop during fine weather.
 
Warm floors would be radiant. The geo systems I researched were all forced air. Some did have an option to transfer excess summer heat to domestic hot water. Of course if you can transfer the heat to air, should be able to transfer it to antifreeze for floors. Could put a zone in the shop you can keep at one temp, another in the garage you can keep a smidge above freezing. The drawback is it can take days to get the temp up or down. Friend has it in his shop and overall loves it though.
 
So many good ideas I wish I could incorporate! However, the realities of life and budget come creeping in. If you know how many $$ I was trying to do this project with I would probably be laughed off the forum! Radiant heat in the shop and garage makes sense, just not financially. I already have the unit heater for the garage so gas line and flu are the only considerations. Geothermal for the house might be an option, shop too if it can be used to service two air handlers. It would depend on the amount of government credits available and the pay back time.
 
I plan an earth-tube system for my house. I don't know how that differs from a geothermal system. I did not see it as prohibitive;y expensive and it has great payback in terms of passive energy (read less money for the utilities). I spent a week last October researching passive energy systems. You might also find it interesting. Be happy to share links if you are interested.
 
For the shop, if you were willing to forgo AC, you could do radiant fairly cheap if you can DIY as much as possible. Basically a bunch of PEX in the floor, some valves a pump, and a small water heater for a heat source. Or they make a small boiler similar to a tankless water heater from what I understand. Menards carries everything so you might get an idea of price off their site. The system gets filled with RV antifreeze. Might be a place around Elkhart where you can get that. :rofl: Depends on the year and your heat tolerance but really its only hot (90's plus in my book) July and August on average and most years not every day. Heat you'll probably start thinking about in October and run until early May. May, June, September, and October are generally pretty nice.

On your floor, make sure there's a thermal break between the garage slab and shop slab no matter how you heat and cool it. Don't want to be transferring all that heat to the wrong space. I had a partition wall in my old shop between an unheated/uninsulated storage area and the shop. The concrete guy who did the back slab put expansion joint material at the wall. Seemed to work well.
 
Been researching some of the ideas expressed here. I was able to find a couple of suppliers of radiant in floor heating that cater to the diy crowd. They help by designing the system, assembling and testing all the manifolds and pump connections, and give you a scale plan to work with. You get all the parts necessary to complete the job in one shipment.

Was thinking that this would be a good way to go setting up three zones, shop, garage, house, using a single heat source. That brings us to another suggestion that was made. Geothermal.

I have done a little research and, from what I see so far, it can be a bit more expensive going in but tax credits and cost of running can make it more attractive. Considering I would need three separate systems going with forced air and a unit heater, it might work out. Would have to do some number crunching before getting in to deep.
 
Ground temps here are around 55º. The deal is that we are heating or cooling air from 55º instead of freezing or less. And a boost from that cool air to help cool house air is a bonus. That is why I considered it more than worth while. If you can do the tractor work yourself that would also help. The pipe is pricey but can be found on Craig's list if you watch diligently. The connectors and elbows will bite the pocketbook though. I thought of it all like prepaying my air conditioning bill. Once it is paid for, its all good!
 
I shopped on line for all my Radiant heat stuff and saved BIG time The local manufacture told me around $14000 with out heat source. I ended up at just a little over $5000 with water heater. It was a company out of Vermont if I remember right. I see them advertise in mags like Mother Earth News
 
I shopped on line for all my Radiant heat stuff and saved BIG time The local manufacture told me around $14000 with out heat source. I ended up at just a little over $5000 with water heater. It was a company out of Vermont if I remember right. I see them advertise in mags like Mother Earth News

I believe I have found the company that you referred to in Vermont. I have ordered their literature and it is quite informative and, you are right pricing is very good. Don't know if I would use this on the entire house and you still would have to put in ductwork for air-conditioning, but certainly the shop is a prime candidate.

The name of the ccompany is radiantec. They can be found at wwww.radiantec.com. In addition to good pricing on the components they offer a free service to engineer the entire system. You send them the information on the floor and how many zones are included and they draw up a diagram to scale and list all the necessary parts to complete the job.

This is a bit of information I will definitely be holding onto. Thanks Jay!
 
I believe I have found the company that you referred to in Vermont. I have ordered their literature and it is quite informative and, you are right pricing is very good. Don't know if I would use this on the entire house and you still would have to put in ductwork for air-conditioning, but certainly the shop is a prime candidate.

The name of the ccompany is radiantec. They can be found at wwww.radiantec.com. In addition to good pricing on the components they offer a free service to engineer the entire system. You send them the information on the floor and how many zones are included and they draw up a diagram to scale and list all the necessary parts to complete the job.

This is a bit of information I will definitely be holding onto. Thanks Jay!

Yep thats the company Rennie. I did by the tubing from another company before I found them but if I was doing it over I would just deal with them. Very nice and very helpful folks and I thought great service.
 
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