The great debate...

Interesting. Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, or a traditionalist, or whatever. The vast majority of what I do is turning. I will do something else once in a great while for a family member or good friend. So, to me turning is getting hands on, getting a bit dirty and dusty and enjoying it. I personally have no particular objection to all the computerized stuff I suppose. Computers are trying to take over the world anyway, so why not wood skills? Can't leave it alone, can they? I use a computer for my online sales and such and that's about it. It's just a tool. I'm better and smarter than it because I can unplug it and all it can do is aggravate me. Anyway, if someone want to use a cnc, that is fine with me. You just won't ever find one in my shop is all. Ever!
 
If you are doing commercial productiion work, I have no problem with CNC. The problem with CNC from the standpoint of art is that it doesn't allow for mistakes, other than bad programming. Working with manual tools, you have to find creative ways of fixing them. It doesn't allow for changes that you make on the fly because you have seen something that changes your original ideas, or a whole host of creative opportunities. I worked at a furniture factory, as an accountant. We had CNC machines that made some of our stuff that was going to a major motel chain. Stuff that was going into people's houses was often hand worked. The people who operated the CNC machines were factory workers. The guys who took tools to the wood were craftsmen.

If you have designed and built your own CNC, that is a laudable accomplishment, but whether you build it or buy it off the shelf, if you are doing CNC you are a computer programmer or user, not a woodworker. I see a lot of machine produced stuff at kiosks in the mall, or at craft shows. It is pretty, precise, and soulless. IMHO.
 
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Oh, boy! Akin to the pins and tails first debates. Craftsmen of every generation used the best tools for the job they could afford and were available to them. Had they had CNC's a hundred years, would they have shunned them? I think not. Woodworking was their livelihood. Get it our the door and quickly and acceptably , get paid and move to the next job. Hobbyists today can be curmudgeonly (word used in Dave's posts) at their leisure. Food on the table does not depend on it. So bottom line - whatever floats your boat.
 
after reading all of the comments in the article, and the posts here, i am firmly convinced that the cnc machine is no more, and no less than any other tool in the shop. sure it involves a different set of skills to use, but what new tool does not? dave, you brought up the subject of lathes. most lathes nowadays have electric motors on them to do the hard work of actually spinning the blank. yet how many of us have retained the skill sets needed to operate a roman bow lathe, a pole lathe, or even a treadle lathe? those took some real walk and chew gum at the same time skills. to say anything done on cnc machines is pretty, precise, and soulless, could be said about the use of any machine assisted items made in the shop. how many prefer to round over a corner with their router rather than with a scraper, and sandpaper (sandpaper, there's one for the scraper purists)? how many prefer to use a dremmel tool, rather than gouges for carving? how many of us would like to go back to the days of sawing by hand, all of the parts we need (with varying accuracy), giving up our table saws? the list goes on. to call an item soulless because of the way the item is made, is a non-starter, as both items start in the creative mind of the woodworker, not the computer which carries out the instructions, nor the hand tools used. without the imagination of the woodworker, all of our tools, whether hand, or powered (cnc included), would be just so many interesting paperweights. now i may work with computers, and was trained as a programmer, and that makes working with a cnc machine that much less mysterious to me, than to others who are not. does that make me any less of a woodworker in all the other areas? it does not. as to the title of handmade, does the batch of turned spindles, made on a lathe with a duplicator, any less handmade than the original that it copies from? the processes are essentially the same, the idea for something comes from the brain, then put to either paper, or code by the woodworker as a design, then taken to the shop to be made, with the aid of the necessary tools. which brings me to the summation, that a cnc machine is no more, no less a tool than our table saws, lathes, drill presses, etc.
 
after reading all of the comments in the article, and the posts here, i am firmly convinced that the cnc machine is no more, and no less than any other tool in the shop.

snip

which brings me to the summation, that a cnc machine is no more, no less a tool than our table saws, lathes, drill presses, etc.

Yup that about sums up my feeling on it! Its the same basic argument that the hand tool vs the power tool folks have. They're all tools. You can do artistic work with any of them. There are places where some work better than others (all the way up and down the stack - doing some types of winged bowls is arguably easier on a pole lathe than a powered lathe for instance) but the quality and life of the result is in the hands an mind of the operator not the tool.
 
My take is to ask a slightly different question. The question should be; is cnc woodworking the same as hand woodworking? True it produces many of the same products, but with a different process. Unlike machines in a conventional shop once programmed a cnc will produce the same item forever without a woodworkers attention. Feeding a of sheet plywood into a machine and getting a knock down chair out I suppose is woodworking, but not hand woodworking. Tables, chairs, bookshelves, whatever, do not always start in the mind of the woodworker, they start in the mind of the designer, sometimes they are also the woodworker.

Another post somewhere on the www suggested that hand woodwork could be defined as having parts produced by hand guiding wood thru a cutting edge or a cutting edge thru the wood. That's not and exact quote but that's the idea. A diffination of hand woodwork or hand crafted would be a big help.

In today's world hand made woodwork is a scarce item. The art is kept alive in our garages and small custom shops. Perhaps cnc production will enhance the desirability of hand made woodworking.

Bill
 
As useless as a "what is handmade?" debate. Is it a sport if you don't sweat? Tastes Great, Less Filling, Ford, Chevy, etc. Like music that is made without "instruments", this is a non-starter as a debate; the viewpoints are quite different. I understand the reluctance to say that something that is so close to printing with a 3D printer constitutes "woodworking". We could also ask if all that great Greene and Greene stuff was the Greene's who designed it or the Hall's who built a lot of it. There are no actual quantifiable boundaries or qualifying parameters so, it will just have to make for good barley-pop conversation ;-)
 
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whatever, do not always start in the mind of the woodworker, they start in the mind of the designer, sometimes they are also the woodworker.

I some way this debate can derivate to asking the question "who is the artist, the person that imagines and designs the piece, or the maker or artisan that makes it?" Artist and artisan are words that are commonly mixed up and misinterpreted, and with CNC happens something similar. Before CNC existed there were ( and still are) replicating machines where an original piece made by hand by a carver, was put on them to make as many copies as needed, needing only some final touches in those corners where the bit could not reach, and to make those pieces look hand carved.

If we focus on the fact that any piece of art has to be imagined by someone, the creator or thinker is the artist, the maker or in this case the CNC machine that makes it are the tools to achieve it. A sign or other similar pieces made on CNC machine are not art IMHO but I'm realising that I am drifting away from the topic.

I fully agree with Glenn. Good for a barley-pop conversation.
 
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To me it is a pretty much useless tool unless you are planning to make lots of money with it. The only projects that I have seen here at have any interest to me are the ones that Leo have made.

I agree that they are tools but what can you make besides decorations, any furniture ??

Toni is a super talented artist but the only skill you would need to copy his work with a cnc machine is computer programming. No artistry there.

Now, a laser is something I think I could find uses for occasionally.



Bet I ticked off a few folks today :D
 
I ranted about this in one of my videos on building the guitar.

Here's the incredibly short-winded and blunt summary of that rant:

Unless you've done it, you don't know what you're talking about. CNC is just a tool like any others. The Shakers would've used them if they were available. There are times when a given tool is practical and when it isn't practical. CNC isn't practical for a lot of things, but it's pretty great where it's practical.


You can find fault with the output a person chooses to produce with a CNC but don't blame the CNC if it looks crummy.
 
You can't turn a bowl with a scraper either!! :eek:

Hopefully the point is understood here. How you get there is up to you...as long as you get to where you want and don't loose any body parts. I doubt I ever get into CNC work, but who knows.

I started turning bowls with a scraper and had a lot of success...then my dad bought me a bowl gouge. Same bowls were turned...just a different tool used to get there.
 
If it works on "real wood" doesn't that make it "real wood working"...

I have no argument for or against the use of the CNC... I don't have the skill set needed to make one work, nor do I plan to learn. My son is pretty much a computer genius and loves all things computer and has since he was 12... he loves his.
 
This issue is an issue I deal with every day of my live. Not just in the home shop but also at work. I am in fact in it today with the difference between a manual grinding machine and a CNC grinding machine. I'm not going into the grinding machines but I will make the EXACT SAME case on th ehome woodworking.


1) A CNC router is NOT a hand plane. Neither is my Dewalt 733 planer or my Jet 6" Jointer. Sooo, I could make the arguement that a Jointer and Planer - is in fact NOT real woodworking and it is cheating.

2) My nice carbide Ogee Router bit in my New Yankee Delux Router table with dust collection is NOT a hand powered molding plane with a cutter that I filed out by hand and heat treated in a coal fired blacksmith furnace. Therefore I could make the arguement that my Router table is NOT really "real" woodworking and is cheating.

3) My Jet Tablesaw with my nice Freud Carbide tipped rip blade is NOT a hand saw made if the finest Sheffield steel and hand set and sharpened with the finest nickelson file. Here again - NOT "real" woodworking.

Oh sure those lectric burners are fine in a commercial production BUT - "REAL" woodworking is done ONLY with hand tools.

Uhhhh - SURE, buckaroo, Yep - you got it nailed.

Here is where the rubber meets the road: It is all a matter of perspective.

4) Can CNC be artful - OK, you got me here, but maybe not. Did you ever try to create a sculptured item before? You know like hand carving a hummingbird? Nooo??????? Oh OK. Sooo, have you ever "drawn" something free hand???? Say like a sailboat on a lake with a shoreline and trees in the background? noooo??? OH OK. Then I guess you really don't know what it takes to do that do you??? So, if so, what qualifications do you have to pass judgment?

YES - CNC - CAN be artful. It's more in the design process than in the mechanical movements of the machine. Have you ever tried to get those mechanical movements to move the way they do? noooo??? oh - ok

5) The ONLY time I hear this argument, including the grinder situation, is from people that do not know anything about it as they comment on the good and bad of that which they know little or nothing about.

6) Is CNC a hand tool - no of course it's not. Neither is my Router table
7) Can CNC duplicate a hand carved piece - somewhat, but not really. Hand carved is going to have a lot of characteristics that CNC will NEVER reproduce. I have a great admiration for hand carved and for anyone with that level of talent. I do NOT posess that talent.
8) Should CNC made be pronounced in public. That's just so funny. When cars first came out there was a caller to proceed ahead of the car to warn horses and people that a car was coming. That is simply rediculous. I guess I should also proclaim that I made this thing on a Table Saw - WOW.
9) Should I claim that the thing I made is "hand made" -- well if I used my band saw, Router Table or Drill Press - NO - I should not. I guess the CNC router falls in the same category.

Of course the workers of yesteryear would have used it. How else did we ever get here. It's called progress. The car DID in fact replace the Horse ya know. Diesel trains replaced Steam, not THAT is a real shame. The panama canal was dug by hand.

I like steam engines, they are cool. I like my Stanley #3, and my eggbeater drill. Sometimes they do things that my electric tools don't do. There is nothing wrong with loving hand tools. There is nothing wrong with loving CNC.

Sooo - now I need to go back to work, lundh is over 10 minutes ago and that CNC precision grinder is waiting on me.
 
Simple put, a CNC is another tool in our arsenal. I could use a handsaw to cut down rough lumber to sizes I need, but I use a table saw and/or band saw. Are people who do scroll work cheating for using a powered scroll saw rather than a coping saw? On and on.....
 
It's just a tool. Just as a table saw, router etc. are tools. Use the item that you feel good about and let the chips fall where they may. The items produced on the CNC are beautiful and hand carving is beautiful. It is just in the eye of the beholder.
Wonder what the old woodworkers said when electricity came along and the tools we use regularly were out out. I am sure the same arguments were made as it's not true "hand made".
All in the perception of the viewer. I may never have a CNC but admire those that do,and produce very nice items.
David
 
Wonder what the old woodworkers said when electricity came along and the tools we use regularly were out out. I am sure the same arguments were made as it's not true "hand made".

:rofl: You should check out the neander forums some other places THAT conversation is still going on :rolleyes:

I think that pure hand work can give you a better appreciation and understanding of how other tools work. I suspect that having done some more traditional machine work and hand work would similarly lead to a greater understanding of how a CNC works (and where it is/is not effective). Also once you've learned to do it a lot of hand work is actually faster than the setup required for small one-offs. One could make a similar set of arguments for/against CNC for a particular purpose, although there is perhaps a slightly greater ease of re-use of "templates" (programs, whatever) for similar but different items.

Its also worth noting that the human body is a remarkably precise machines, the precision a trained machinist can achieve by hand (eye and feel) is simply remarkable (at least to those of us lacking those skills :D). Again, there is (imho) still room for this in small part work but it tends to scale poorly.

Now as to the labeling... There is probably some truth in advertising level where I'm comfortable but I'm not sure where that is as the lines get pretty grey around the transition points. Mostly I would argue than CNC generally doesn't count as "hand crafted", but it could be "craftsman made". I dunno.. in the end there is the result but there is also some intangible interface (or lack thereof) to the person making the piece and in some weird way that seems to matter.

To pick on a particular company:
http://www.dropspindle.info/spinning/spinning-wheels-for-sale
Those are all listed as "hand carved", personally I'm dubious having seen some of them - they look CNC carved and then hand touched up to my inexpert eye. Having said that, does it matter? Are they less artistic for it? Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
 
I am reminded by something Sam Maloof said when I took a class with him someone asked him about using a spoke shave instead of a micro plane that he was using to shape the arm on a chair. He got up and got one out of the cabinet on the wall took a few strokes with it and then set it down and went back to the hand plane. He said it was to slow for his liking. He then had his helper to get the tool they used for shaping the seat on the chair. It turned out to be an air grinder with a rotary rasp. Sam went on to say that there was no right or wrong tool the correct tool is the one that you comfortable with and gets the jobs done. A CNC is just a tool just like a spoke shave. It is the wood worker that makes em both work.

I just remembered the guy who asked the question It was Mark Singer. Some of you may know mark from another forum. He is a wood worker and a world renouned architect in California.
 
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I see similar discussions among guitar players. Some guitarists prefer using old-school amplifiers with vacuum tubes.Tube amps have a unique warmth to their sound. Others (including me) like to use solid state devices that use a computer chip to emulate or "model" the sound of a tube amp. (Or in the case of my Fractal Axe-Fx rig, several hundred different amps and an equal number of speaker cabinets, plus countless effects boxes.) These days, the technology used by the better amp modelers makes it difficult if not impossible to tell the difference between a real tube amp and a modeler. At the end of the day, it's still music coming out of the speakers.
 
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