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Enough amps?

Rennie Heuer said:
Yep, gonna have to figure into the budget bringing new service in from the street with a separate meter for the shop. Alternately, upgrading service to the house and pulling new wire to a sub panel in the shop.
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It'd likely be cheaper overall to upgrade the house to a 200 amp panel, and run a 100 amp sub-panel in the shop. Cheaper for the original work, and just one big electric bill instead of two smaller ones. The "basic service" charges that are tacked on to each bill would likely make the two bills substantially larger than just having one.
 
All good advice and very welcome advice is well. Yes, I think upgrading the main panel may be the least expensive way to go. Especially when one considers basic monthly charges as the bill in the shop may not be very large some months. Paying the minimum may make the upgrade to the main panel more worth it. For general information, here is the current panel.
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The double 30 in the upper right corner goes to the garage. What is confusing is that the panel in the garage is a 100 amp panel with a main 100 amp breaker. Obviously that may be something they just found someplace and decided to install rather than buy new.
 
OK I am going to put in my 2 cents since everyone else has so here is my take. First of all I don't think you are going to run a large shop with many employees working at the same time I believe for the most part is will only be 1 person. Now what are the maximum number of machines that will run at one time. In my shop if was 2. The dust collector and either the Table Saw or planer or joiner or the Band saw. So first I decided to run them all on 220 Volts and have 2 20 amp/220 volts services in the shop. Why 20 amp well @ 220 Volts motors will draw 1.2 amps per horsepower and non of the motors in my shop were above 3 horsepower so a 20 amp service was more than adequate. The compressor was also 220 but I generally kept it turned off so it wouldn't cycle. I didn't like being surprise by a sudden loud noise while running the table saw. Next I ran 2 separate 20 amp 110 volt circuits. There are 8 4 plug boxes in my 20x10 space and I alternated which box ran of which breaker to no two boxes next to each other. Depending on the size of your shop a single 0 amp service would also be sufficient for your lighting need. The 100 amp panel in your garage is more tan adequate to run the above so all you need is to upgrade your house to 200 amps and and possibly the line from the main to your house. JMHO
 
Rennie Heuer said:
What is confusing is that the panel in the garage is a 100 amp panel with a main 100 amp breaker. Obviously that may be something they just found someplace and decided to install rather than buy new.
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It's not at all uncommon to use a main panel as a sub, and feed it with less power than it's rated load (at least in my neck of the woods). My last shop had a 100 amp service panel, but was fed with a #6 wire/50 amp breaker as a sub panel from the house (when we bought it). I upsized that wire/breaker to 100 amps.
 
fred hargis said:
It's not at all uncommon to use a main panel as a sub, and feed it with less power than it's rated load (at least in my neck of the woods). My last shop had a 100 amp service panel, but was fed with a #6 wire/50 amp breaker as a sub panel from the house (when we bought it). I upsized that wire/breaker to 100 amps.
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Yup, have had this too, which is why I was wondering the size of the wire going out there and if it could handle a larger breaker at the main. ;) May be that is all you need, or to run a larger wire and use a larger breaker at the main, which should save you some cost. Could always upgrade the main later if it's causing overload on the main, but most likely it will be enough.
 
Finally got an electrician out here about 10 days ago, it took him that long to respond with a quote! Getting anyone to come out to give a quote has been a real chore. Either they don't need the work or are just too busy to deal with me I guess.

The electrician came up with a good solution. I checked with the power company and I'm all set up for 200a already, I just have a 100a main panel. So, what he suggested was to add a small panel below the meter with 2 100a breakers, one to feed the house, one for the shop. We would then run the 50' or so underground to a new panel in the shop. Good solution. I said I would do the trenching and install the new panel. He was to quote on a new mast, update the meter, install the new exterior breakers and run the line to the shop. He suggested 2/0 copper.

I was shocked (pun intended) when I got his quote. He wants $2,600 just to do the work outlined above. Wow! That seems really really high. I was thinking about half that. Time to get another couple of quotes
 
More issues. Just spoke to the zoning dept. The current garage, that I want to add on to, was a non-permitted, non-conforming build. It sits less than 3 feet from the property line, the required setback is 10 feet. He believes there is a chance I can get a variance, but it will cost me a $650 fee to get a hearing and find out. If they say no there is no other place on my lot I can build. Might be selling off a lot of good woodworking equipment.
 
Rennie Heuer said:
More issues. Just spoke to the zoning dept. The current garage, that I want to add on to, was a non-permitted, non-conforming build. It sits less than 3 feet from the property line, the required setback is 10 feet. He believes there is a chance I can get a variance, but it will cost me a $650 fee to get a hearing and find out. If they say no there is no other place on my lot I can build. Might be selling off a lot of good woodworking equipment.
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Rennie, none of that seems right. That type of information should have been revealed by the previous owner. You might be able to take action against the agent or previous owner for a settlement.
 
Man i feel for you. Somewhere along the path your luck has to break.

As to electricians quote, i recently purchased 6/ 3 cable not even the buried type and wow it was a shocker. I noticed your guy is specifying 2 guage and its going in a trench. Is there to be conduit?
I think you will be surprised to see the cost of materials alone.
Circuit breaker i used was only 60amp and it was over $29.
Then add the panels etc it all adds up fast.
For a sparky its a relatively small job, so you got factor in travel time, overhead margin on the materials then actual labor hours and inspection. Keep in mind to get at the incoming main he will have to get town to shut off at pole to split the connection. That may happen on a specific day and add to time and travel involved.

Hope things work out for you Rennie.
 
Don't blow off the variance request. Your odds may be much better than you think. Advantage to the convening authorities is that if your property is improved your property taxes go up. If there has been no complaint with regard to the setback violation to this point, there may not be a problem making it legal with the variance. The granting of the variance eliminates future complaints and saves you the hassle now to get what you really wanted.

Find out exactly what the process is and then decide. $650 is a small price to pay to keep your shop and have the building you want for it. The alternative is unthinkable. What would you do? This is a good part of your well being, an outlet for your creativity, and an opportunity to make things better for you and Jan going forward.

Go for it and good luck!

You will probably get a ruling faster than me and I have been at for over a year now. :( And it cost me $4K!
 
Good luck on the variance Rennie! I think Carols on the mark there, a lot of local jurisdictions are fairly reasonable with such things if you go hat in hand (some aren't but a lot are so hoping yours is).

I'd agree with Rob that the electrical doesn't sound quite as far off as it might seem at first. All those bits are way pricier than you'd think on first blush. Would definitely be interesting if you get cheaper quotes though.
 
On the electrical, here's what happened when I did my shop addition. The front of my shop building is about 180' from the distribution panel on the side of our house. I added up everything I would need to buy, cost of trencher rental, etc., and was in the $2400 range. I contacted a couple of electrical contractors. One of them talked a good line on the phone but never showed up to look at the job. The other one came over at the end of the day, then back the next day with a quote of $2100 which included all materials and labor. He obviously gets better pricing than I can get!

You mentioned using 2/0 (00) but that's overkill for your project. My contractor suggested using #2 for the hots, #4 for the common and #8 for ground. I had originally looked at using 1/0 for the three conductors and #4 for ground. His approach made much more sense from a practical standpoint. The #2 conductors have a rating of 94 amps which is plenty to run my shop. Yes, it feeds a "100A" panel, but the typical maximum current draw is 50 amps or less.
 
The zoning is almost a moot point anyway as we have had to spend much more on the move with the truck problems than we budgeted, so the shop budget shrunk to a point that I would not have been able to build anyway. Bummer.

So, we are going to our fallback position and I am going to take over the garage for the shop. Not looking forward to leaving the vehicles out all year, but that's the only option.

The garage interior dimensions are roughly 23’ X 27’. It has 8’ 3” ceilings and has insulated walls. The roof trusses are designed for a storage attic and I have already put down a floor and begun moving things up there. There is no insulation in the attic and I will probably blow in insulation sometime soon.

The first order of business will be to build a 10 X 16 storage shed to hold all the non woodworking items (yard tools, bikes, mower, etc.). It will also be the temporary home for many shop items while construction is going on in the shop. I need to clean and paint the floor, upgrade wiring, and build partition walls.

As the walls are already insulated I'll be upgrading the wiring by running conduit. This necessitates my having a pretty solid plan regarding the placement of major tools.

Here's the outline/wish list for the shop. Small office, ½ bath, and a separate space for the compressor and dust collector. It currently has a 16’ roll up door and a 6’ roll up. The 16’ will stay but the 6’ will go away. There is one man door.

I’ll be working on layout while getting ready to build the shed. Would still like to be in before winter!.

As for the electrician I'll be getting at least one more quote and I'll keep the wire gauge in mind.
 
Rennie given your mention of budget, i would seriously ask the question of myself were i you as to issues of priority.
Do you really need a 1/2 bath when budget is tight?
Does the floor really need painting when its going to get wrecked over time.
Can you make do in the short term with a shed something like i put up for additional storage given you mention storing non woodworking items in it.
In my external view, you would save time and money perhaps leaving these nice to have items to later to be able to get setup and electrics done before snow flys in Mi.
Just a thought on the electrics. Nothing says you have to button down your shop panel and fix your layout in stone ie conduiting all over.
What i am doing for example is putting my shop panel in the middle of the two car garage mounted to a set of mobile draws. The board i put the panel on will have all my necessary receptacles wired to their own breakers. I even plan on having it double sided.
Now this leaves me with a receptacle of appropriate type and current rating to hook up anything i have within the cord distance of any machine or piece of equipment i have.
The main cable is fixed against the wall right now but has enough length to reach the center where the panel will be located. I plan on making it such that it hangs from the roof on a suitable support.
Should the need arise in some sort of winter emergency where i need to haul say a vehicle into the shop to check something out, i will be able to move the whole lot back against the wall.
Now i would not do this for long period if it were my place. But a setup like this can help with getting layout done before you commit to fixed locations for your receptacles and conduit.

What i am trying to say is I know you as a fine craftsman and perfectionist. But if you looking at being entrepreneurial and making some income from your shop, you may want to consider being more flexible in what has to happen NOW, versus getting up and running on your business goals. Keep some of that budget for getting the marketing advertising side of your shop and business going rather than investing it all in things like paint for the floor which will keep you plenty busy but wont put food on the table.

A couple of good orders for your kind of work will leave you with income you can take from and buy paint, but more important than that it will give you confidence that you can make it pay in your new home and that will be a huge psychological win for both you and your missus in your new place.

I dont live my tin shed. But for its price it was hard to argue about. Now its up and kitted out for storage, its worked out well against some storms we had. It was practical and relatively fast to put up with Linda's help. Take a look at them at Tractor Supply it may well be worth it for you.

Naturally i say all this assuming you going to fire up making stuff again for sale. Biggest saving i say to small business folks all the time is you can always make a budget work through sales. Cutting expenses only takes one so far, you don't make money by cutting. You make money by selling something for a profit to someone else.
Most shy away from selling by doing busy work and tidying their sock draw so to speak. Don't fall prey to that. All the best of luck to you.
 
Rennie,

Currently I have a 26x26 garage with all the toys - even a CNC machine in the middle of the floor.

I am usually going against the flow with my comments so I will make my opinion known here as well.

You do NOT need a 100 amp service in your shop and you do NOT need 200 amp in the house.

I have central air in the house electric clothes dryer, well pump on 220v

I have a 60 amp breaker in the main and a sub panel in the shop.

Summer I run 2 big window A/C units in the shop.

I run the 2hp DC, the 2 A/C's and the CNC as well as a 2hp band saw, AND a table saw of Jointer
I have the radio on, the computer and the lights all in th eshop

If you add it all up - it's less than the 60 amp service.

I have no desire to upgrade the electrical service.

My house is on a 100 amp service with a 60 amp out to the shop.

NOW - with that said, a 200 amp service in the house and 100 amp in the shop is certainly a "nice to have"

I am currently upgrading my house to 200 amps, but it is because I am installing solar and I will convert the shop heating to electric and upgrading other things to electric. I will need the house upgrade to 200 amp to be able to upgrade the electric appliances. Other than that - the 100 amp in the house is sufficient. I do not plan to upgrade the shop beyond 60 amps. The electric heating will come directly from the main panel in the house.

So if budget is a concern, you CAN stay with the 100 amp house and 60 amp shop.
If budget is not a concern, then 200 amp house and 100 amp shop.

You DO have the option.
 
Leo,

Thanks for putting things a bit more in perspective. I'll get a second quote, but I think you make some very good points. It's a one man shop. The most that I see running at the same time would be the table saw, dust collector, AC, radio/computer and lighting. add them all up and you don't get much in load. I can see that a 60 amp service might be more than sufficient and would likely be less expensive to install. I'll go back to the original electrician and see if we can whittle down that number.

Rob,
Can always depend on you for helping to put things in perspective. I think the electrical needs to be done as well as I can do it the first time. I'm just picky peculiar that way. My goal though, thanks to your input, will be to design it to be a flexible as possible. Thar might just boil down to more outlets more closely spaced to accommodate changes in machine placement. The half bath is a 'would like to have' item, though at my age it borders on the must have :rofl:. Without the office space I will have no place for the computer and printer - remember we downsized moving here to MI. As for firing up and making things for sale, yes, and no. I will continue to make things to sell but I'm not going to lose touch with the fact that I am retired. I want to enjoy my time in the shop so I will likely not do many 'production' items - but I will still seek out work to do that is one of a kind. Probably not the most profitable path, but one that will aid in holding on to my sanity and enjoyment of my craft.
 
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