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Jonathan Shively

Jonathan Shively

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North West Indiana
My school wants me to create a "Business class" around my wood turning class. They want to promote it to area schools as we are the only area school with a wood turning class. Of course they don't want to invest any money into this new endeavor . So, my first proposal to them (i.e.: Superintendent and area vocational director) is an Epilogue laser. With this we could engrave any and all pens made in the shop, we could create plaques for the various school functions and knowing it was a $10,000.00 investment (that I was sure would save much money to the sports and various clubs). It is a fully functioning production machine. I don't see the Carve Wright in the same league or as reliable (here is a spot for your opinions, thoughts, suggestions and random thoughts).

Plan #2 after plan #1 was shot down. X Carve (https://www.inventables.com/technolo...stomize#1000mm). This is really where I need your expertise. Is this a machine I can depend on if taken reasonable care of? Should it hold up to daily use? Run by itself with occasional checks throughout the day? If given a $4,000.00 budget would it be prudent to purchase two of these machines and an array of consumables? And is this machine like building a shop, should I buy the biggest one or is it a waste of time, energy and prematurely wear out components due to oversized machine?

Plan #3, are the machines on this page, http://www.rockler.com/power-tools/cnc-machines/next-wave?price=2000-3000 better than the X carve and should be considered.

I greatly appreciate any and all pieces of information you can share with me. I am illiterate on this subject. I hope to get it purchased soon so it can arrive by summer so I can get it together and run some tests with it on my own time.

Or, is there a better machine for my money? Open to all ideas at this time. Remember, at this time I think the ceiling is going to be $4,000.00 max. Thank you all for anything you provide to this project.
 
Perhaps you shot down the laser a little soon, Jon. A quick search revealed a bunch of sub $4k machines. I have a bit of experience on lasers, CNC's, and 3d printers. And a bit of experience as an instructor. So take this for what you will. The fly in the ointment is "run by itself with occasional checks throughout the day." I would never walk too far away or for very long with a CNC. Stuff happens, and quickly. There is also the noise factor. If you have to stay within close proximity to the machine, the noise would make it impossible to do any other teaching. Everyone would need ear protection all the time. The other issue that raised alerts for me is attempting to make a hobbyist machine function in a high use situation. I seriously doubt these machines are stout enough. There are also some safety issues. The laser will need to be vented but once the cover is down, the machine runs silently without supervision. I also think your reasoning for the value of the laser is right on.

There is one more issue. To machine on a cylinder (pen, or any other turned object) requires a radial axis on a CNC. This would be the 'A' axis. That maybe a budget buster for you.

Hope these thought help.
 
All answers help Carol. I have always been of the understanding if it wasn't an Epilogue it was junk. I may have overstated my intentions as I also have no experience and no knowledge on how fast or slow these machines operate. Can the CNC machines "etch" a pen barrel and then we could back fill and polish the pen?
 
A CNC could but you will still need an "A" axis to do that. Something needs to rotate the pen barrel while its being machine. I am not aware that the machine you listed have that option. Again, the quality of the hobbyist machine will not stand up to an academic environment. I sincerely think you would be wasting your hard won budget.

I was at the lab this morning and we talked about your choices. We agreed that you would not want to be more than a jump away from the e-stop switch on a CNC. The first clue that something is wrong, is the sound changes.

And FWIW, Epilog is not the only laser cutter worth the money. The laser guy at the lab thinks you could easily find a laser cutter well within your budget. Unless you have another agenda with regard to a CNC.

Also the skills for using the laser cutter are easier than the skills needed to learn to operate a CNC. Basically, you only have to learn drawing skills. SketchUp works nicely along with a plug in for converting files to .stl files. The CNC also requires CAM skills and another piece of software to learn. That will cut into your budget as well.

One more thing from an instructor's POV. The laser cutter can easily cut out cardboard or thin plywood which can mock up parts. These parts can be assembled into a 3d model. Later you can move to 3d printers to make 3d parts and now you have taught 'maker' skills. This is a very valuable combination of skills in the marketplace. If you are interested in talking more about this, I can put you into contact with the owner of the lab I work at. He is in the business of teaching maker skills in conjuction with the schools. They don't have the equipment so they contract with the lab. We have young people making competitive robots, 3d printed rocket engines that have been flight tested out at Edwards Testing Range, and a myriad of other things. We also have businesses that mock up prototypes with inexpensive laser cutters and 3d printers. By comparison, the CNC is used very little. CNC's are wonderful for repetitive work but much more work for creative work and prototypes. Businesses need those skills because they are also thinking skills. The universities around here also use the lab because their budgets and space constraints don't allow for expensive pieces of equipment. The other component is that technology moves at warp speed and the budgeting process works at turtle speed. So by the time you gets all the parts together (machines, software, and proficiency) technology has moved on and your equipment is now obsolete. If your goal is to help make your students market savy and better prepared for employment, you have to be flexible.

BTW, CAD at the lab means 'cardboard assisted drafting.' Great for proof of concept.

Not trying to change your mind, just to make you aware of your choices. And maybe correct a misconception.
 
I can't speak for the current situation at Inventables, but they did have a program of donating CNC machines to schools. If that's still in play, you can't beat the cost!
 
Carol, my original intentions of this class was to coordinate it directly into production from the woodturning class. I probably overstated, I am not wanting to start a comprehensive trophy/plaque shop at the school. The Epilogue laser was my first thought as I know that is what Pete Simmons uses as well as the Marc Adams School of Woodworking uses. Cheap lasers use a different type of laser and yes I am a complete illiterate on this subject. Could you please provide some laser names I can check into??? Thanks.
 
Well, Jon, I am not an expert here and my calendar precludes me from doing the research for you, but I know this much. You will need a list of operations you want the machine to be able to do. Example: just etching, cutting through materials, etc. And you will need to familiarize yourself with the different technologies to find the one that you will need. Then it is a matter of power. And that determines cost. There is no one size that fits everyone's needs. And nobody has the budget to buy more than they need, especially a school district.

But here is also the issue of supporting logistics. Power requirements, venting requirements, consumables, specialized safety gear, etc. Same research protocol used in any machine purchase that is not an emotional purchase. If I were in your shoes, I take some of my brighter students and make them the research team. Good practice for them for life and it becomes part of the business class. It is the part called overhead. :) Reviews are not hard to find on-line.
 
Carol Reed said:
Well, Jon, I am not an expert here and my calendar precludes me from doing the research for you, but I know this much. .
Click to expand...

I did not mean for it to sound like I wanted you to do my research. In my head, I thought I had read in your previous answer that through your earlier discussion with some teachers, there were lasers out there dollar for dollar as functional as Epilogue. I thought in your talk maybe a specific brand was mentioned. I apologize for my mistake. I'll do my own research of course.
 
Sorry, Jon, no brand names came up in our discussion. I will be in the lab on Monday and I will ask some more specific questions for you. In the meantime, it looks like Dan has a rabbit hole or two for you to run into.
 
i've already dove headfirst into that one carol. been planning it since i shut down the shop last fall. i figured as long as i was expanding the cnc (adding 6 inches to my y axis), i would add the laser to it as well. since the way they do it, they remove the spindle every time they use the laser setup. i put the ol peanut to working on a workaround, and came up with the adapter (that brent so kindly printed for me). now i can have my cnc, and laser too. all in all, what i paid for the upgrade (their kit, an extra set of safety glasses, and 3 sheets of safety barrier) cost me just over $410.
 
I did the PM because that was the way this question started.

I think I was misunderstanding the objective in the outcome.

I was steering away from Laser and more to training students in marketable skills that industry needs. After all is that not what schools are all about?

We work with local vocational schools and have donated machinery to the schools. We work with one school in particular to help them set an agenda as to what the students need to learn. We also hire the top performers from the school.

What I suggested to John was a bit more robust machine that can take the student errors. I suggested Shopbot with Vectric. Shopbot today is far better than Shopbot was years ago. I think that can be accomplished inside of $4,000 as Shopbot works with Vectric to make partmaker which is essentially V-Carve Pro specifically for Shopbot. It is my opinion that CAM, and 3-4 axis CNC will give the student more valuable skills than rotary laser skills.

However, that plan does not fit into the original objective.

I have looked at Epilog about 12 years ago for home small business. I like the company. We also have a few Epilog laser machines at work and they just keep on ticking. It doesn't seem to be too difficult to learn as we have several people working with the machines to etch out round metal parts.
 
I knew you would have great input, Leo. Partnership with local industry. Go for it, Jon. You may realize a far greater outcome than you dreamed possible.
 
Not wishing to sidetrack this conversation, but have schools changed?
Its many years since i was at school but i was always under the impression (seems wrongly so) that the school at least elementary and high school were there to provide a broad education rather than produce workers for a local industry. Whats happened then to going to a trade school where you learnt job specific skills.?
I find it hard to swallow that a teacher needs to be looking to make a teaching aid payback by doing cost saving production work on it.
Somewhere fiscal priorities are up the creek in the greater system here. Can i ask how is school as a general rule funded in US? Is it municipal, county, state , or federal funded?
To me it just seems surreal that in the USA of all the places on the planet a teacher is being expected to provide rudimentary broad cnc exposure with $4000. I almost cannot believe what i am reading.
There has to something i am missing as an outsider ???
I bet DOD wastes that much in an hour on toilet seats or something from what i have read in past about their purchasing.
African schools rely on donations surely not US schools. ???
 
I cannot speak to the funding issue. However we are all aware of the high school student that graduates and has little to no marketable skills when they go out to find a job. We are also aware of the quality of education and the extreme waste in finances with NO bank for the buck. Our schools are in dire straits and in serious need of repair. That is a sad state of affairs.

Industry cannot find anything in the arena of qualified workers and we need to train anyone we hire.

But there IS hope, it is not all bleak and darkness.

We ARE talking about trade schools and that is the focus of attention in this thread. Yes, the trade schools and the industrial community DO work together. I am very much in support of that.

There are specific programs in the vocational schools such as "machine shop" and those programs focus on metal cutting and definately on CNC machining. We have several of those students and they are awesome.

We also work with a program with a local vocational associate level college whereas they have a program funded by the state of Rhode Island to help unemployed people to get them into productive and meaningful work. Those students must be unemployed, have desire and follow a RIGID 12 week schedule. We employ those students in a very nice employment situation and give them additional training.

One student that I am currently training is standing in front of a $450,000 Studer S33 precision CNC grinding machine and learning how to grind to 1/4 micron (10 millionths) tolerance levels. That is not something I take lightly. He is as happy as a pig in gooey stuff. Being that he has only high school and no prior machining experience. So am as happy as well. In addition, he is of a nationality that is viewed as not so good. What an awesome young man he really is. I am so glad to have him.

Yes - that is a school that my company donates machinery to. Haas America has also donated several machining centers and lathes to the same school.

Another of those students I am training is a young girl. She is in training on our Swiss Turning machines. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with this stuff but it is all very marketable skills. I am teaching her machine operation, setup and eventually programming. She followed the same program as my grinder operator.

We have about 6 students going through similar training at our work place.

These students have been given a tremendous opportunity. These opportunities were not available to me when I was young and unemployed.

These students will never want for work again. They will have skills that will carry them throughout the rest of their lives.

I cannot for the life of me see anything negative about that.

I hope after I retire from industry to be involved in programs like this at my local schools and colleges.

So yes - schools have changed and continue to change since I was young. I desperately hope they continue to change. I am in FULL support of John and in his school in the endeavors they pursue. BRAVO!

Sorry for ranting here - but I am passionate about teaching and training.
 
I will go through these three posts and answer and try to explain each specific question with a well thought out answer. If more information is created due to these answers please feel free to provide it. If I have still created a muddy mess, please ask for further explanation.

Leo Voisine said:
I did the PM because that was the way this question started.

Leo is correct. I originally pm'ed a few people because I was looking for a specific niche of information.

I think I was misunderstanding the objective in the outcome.

Not a problem, I was looking for specific info without writing an essay and it got misunderstood.

I was steering away from Laser and more to training students in marketable skills that industry needs.

First of all, my community does not have industry.

After all is that not what schools are all about?

Not necessarily, it is about broadening a students experiences and creating a mind that is always open to education/research/continued learning.

We work with local vocational schools and have donated machinery to the schools. We work with one school in particular to help them set an agenda as to what the students need to learn. We also hire the top performers from the school.

That is excellent and I applaud you and your company. I do not have a specific target.

What I suggested to John was a bit more robust machine that can take the student errors. I suggested Shopbot with Vectric. Shopbot today is far better than Shopbot was years ago. I think that can be accomplished inside of $4,000 as Shopbot works with Vectric to make partmaker which is essentially V-Carve Pro specifically for Shopbot. It is my opinion that CAM, and 3-4 axis CNC will give the student more valuable skills than rotary laser skills.

However, that plan does not fit into the original objective.

I have looked at Epilog about 12 years ago for home small business. I like the company. We also have a few Epilog laser machines at work and they just keep on ticking. It doesn't seem to be too difficult to learn as we have several people working with the machines to etch out round metal parts.
Click to expand...

This is specifically what I was looking for. I cannot afford the lowest level Epilogue and was looking for a more affordable workhorse that will work in my situation. So far, other than cheap Chinese knockoffs that have questionable warranties or hours of actual work before becoming a boat anchor, I have not found such a company.

Carol Reed said:
I knew you would have great input, Leo. Partnership with local industry. Go for it, Jon. You may realize a far greater outcome than you dreamed possible.
Click to expand...

Again, in a perfect world, yes this is the way to go. We are very rural and our school district boasts no industry other than local business (which is struggling) and farming.

Rob Keeble said:
Not wishing to sidetrack this conversation, but have schools changed?

We would hope they have changed. Our world certainly has.

Its many years since i was at school but i was always under the impression (seems wrongly so) that the school at least elementary and high school were there to provide a broad education rather than produce workers for a local industry. Whats happened then to going to a trade school where you learnt job specific skills.?

Very good Rob. You are onto the track I am getting to.

I find it hard to swallow that a teacher needs to be looking to make a teaching aid payback by doing cost saving production work on it.

I am not really trying to make it payback, but in reality in a Business class, shouldn't the equipment used in the classroom be able to show a profit margin? Thus the students could create a business, market it, create a product and "sell" it. Instead of doing it on paper out of a book, what I was asked and am trying to develop is a class centered around the 14 mini lathes and 120 students (out of less than 300 in our school) to show them and help them take their pens and turnings into another level that distinguishes their product and raises its value. Thus they can become empowered to create their own abilities and learn how to earn money while going to college or as a sideline business of their own doing (which many of my students already are earning more money selling their pens than their counterparts are working at the local hamburger joint). I prefer to teach in a real world setting versus out of a book. Thus when something goes wrong, they LEARN how to deal with the situation. Our schools are to full of paper pencil tasks that don't require thought because the students are not "involved" with the real situation. Also thought it would be a great opportunity for students to also create a "business" to create the awards for our school clubs/organizations/sports teams saving them some money creating a real cash flow opportunity to purchase more equipment.

Somewhere fiscal priorities are up the creek in the greater system here. Can i ask how is school as a general rule funded in US? Is it municipal, county, state , or federal funded?

Yes Rob, all of the funding as you stated. The percentages have gone drastically down. Public education is taking a beating at the current time. In order to survive in dwindling populations, money and public sentiment, creative teaching situations are required (which isn't all bad).

To me it just seems surreal that in the USA of all the places on the planet a teacher is being expected to provide rudimentary broad cnc exposure with $4000. I almost cannot believe what i am reading.

That is the dollar amount offered to me with a directive to create a class that will hopefully draw students from surrounding schools. I didn't say it was an ideal world. Just created a series of questions asking for information from people that have more experience than I with this type of equipment. To many times equipment is purchased based on a salesman's word and then when it doesn't work it sits on a shelf(the waste you speak of later). I do not have that option, as what I decide on has to perform. If it performs well enough and the class grows, more money will possibly be provided. But wasting money is not my objective and I came to this group to garner expertise to show my bosses research from knowledgeable people with real world experience.

There has to something i am missing as an outsider ???

Hopefully I have better explained myself and the situation I find myself in.

I bet DOD wastes that much in an hour on toilet seats or something from what i have read in past about their purchasing.
African schools rely on donations surely not US schools. ???
Click to expand...

No comment.
 
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Not all high school students are college bound either for economic, or mind set reasons. Yes our schools do lack in preparing these students for real life living. Every item we can provide to get them to really see what they can produce is a step forward getting out do doing there "thing". To often the students minds are wasted on being pushed into something they could care less about. All the studies need to focus on the future of the student. Hands on doing or paper work whatever. All studies are needed. The CNC, laser, woodworking, machine shop each fill a need that has to be filled.
The trade schools partially fill this need however a student needs to be exposed to discipline earlier to see how it will fit his ambition.
John sure wished I had you as an instructor in high school. ( To many years ago to remember) Your dedication and ambition are to be much admired. Your students hopefully will appreciate your efforts. Industry should applaud your endeavor.
 
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