A Gouge Experiment

Dave Hoskins

Member
Messages
5,252
Location
Parker County, Texas
I decided a bit ago that it was time to replace the 5/8" bowl gouge. 90% of my turning tools are by Hamlet, which I like a lot. Sharpen well, and stay sharp even turning bodark. I actually settled on them after trying Sorby, Crown, and Henry Taylor. All good tools no doubt. Well, my regular supplier was out of 5/8" Hamlets so I decided to experiment with a lower dollar tool. I remember some folks here talking about Benjamin's best tools and decided why not try one. So, I ordered the 5/8" bowl gouge. I even ordered it with the extra long handle. OK. Got here fine and on time. Wheee!!! New toy!!!! First discovery was it was so light I had to make sure it was in my hand. Second was the diameter. They seem to measure their sizes on the outside diameter, not the flute. So basically it's the same size as my Hamlet 1/2" gouge. But on the plus side the weight of the gouge could have advantages in some cases. It does cut fairly well. Just have to get used to the weight of it I suppose. But I think I will get another Hamlet as soon as they are back in stock. Anyway, after all the rambling it simply boils down to you get what you pay for. I paid less than half of what I pay for a 5/8" Hamlet and get less than half a 5/8" Hamlet. Oh, well. Here endeth the lesson such as it is. :D
 
The sizing of some of the gouges was a bit of a puzzle to me as well.. but I eventually found this description somewhere:

"US manufacturers measure the diameter of the tool. The Euro manufacturers measure the width of the flute."

So if you buy ~any~ US manufactured gouge they'll be ~really close~ to the same size as the Benjamins gouge.
 
Dave, do yourself a favor next time you're in an experimenting mood and just buy a Thompson gouge. You can thank me later. ;)

Seriously, there are no gouges that hold a candle to Doug Thompson's gouges at anywhere near the same price. I've used (and in some cases still own) Sorby, Benjamin's Best, Crown, Hamlet, Henry Taylor, Harbor Freight, and probably a few others I can't think of right now. Hands down, no questions asked, Thompsons are the best. It's all in the metal he uses. They sharpen very well, and hold an edge much longer than anything else I've used. And they're less expensive than some of the brands I just listed, because you buy them directly from the guy who makes them: Doug Thompson. All the other brands have one, two, three, or more middlemen getting their cut of the pie. The only middleman with Doug's tools is the postal worker who delivers it to your door, lol. There might be one or two brands out there with comparable steel, but they cost 3 or 4 times as much as Thompson tools. (We're talking $100+ for a simple gouge.) All of his tools come without a handle, so you'll have to make or buy one, but it's well worth it. (BTW, bodark makes great tool handles.) :)

Try one...I'm pretty certain you'll be hooked. :thumb:

http://thompsonlathetools.com/
 
I'll echo Vaughn's recommendation for Thompson tools. I have a couple of Jerry Glaser's gouges that are still going strong after many years, but since Jerry passed, almost all of my lathe tools have come from Doug Thompson and they are the absolute best. He makes a great handle too. Highly recommended.
 
I went to a turning demonstration tonight, and the demonstrator was using a Hamlet gouge. I'd never heard of it before, and nw I come herre and you're talking about it. He was full of praise for the quality of the Hamlet. He was also using a Thompson gouge. Anyway, I have a lot of Benjamin's Best tools, because I can afford them. I'm probably not experienced enough yet to give a detailed analysis, but they work for me, and seem to hold an edge a reasonable time. I've gone to the Penn State store in Philly a couple of times, and raided their bargain bin for $5 and $10 tools. They are cheap enough that if I wish, I can experiment with different grinds without worrying about messing up $100 worth of tool.
 
I've heard of Thompson tools before, but never explored them. I'm gonna take a look at them. Roger, I used for my first year or so some gouges and what from Highland called Bodger tools. They worked. Good enough to convince me to pursue turning. So use what you can get and are comfortable. There's lot's of tools and gadgets I would like to have in my shop but can't afford or simply sometimes can't justify the expense of them. I'll eat beans and tortillas to get something if I can justify the expense of it. Other than the fact I do like beans and tortillas. :D We all do what we can do. But, I won't go in debt with credit cards or whatever for it. uhuh
 
By far, the most disappointing for me is Taylor. At nearly $100.00 per pop I'm glad I have wasted money on only one. And that was with a gift certificate. Still a disappointment. The gouge seems to get dull before the sharpening wheel even stops turning. :( Some of my favorites are really ancient no-names, or just 'cast steel' or Buck Brothers cast steel I picked up at an estate sale. I have others which are good but cannot compare to the oldies.
 
My limited experience with Thompson versus Benjamin's Best is that the Thompson lasts 2-3 times longer between sharpening. Closer to 3x or maybe a bit better for roughing and closer to 2x for finish cuts (but I like my gouge pretty well honed for finishing) That's on a two gouges of each comparison so not exactly a large study but mirrors most other folks experience.
 
I don't think I would compare a Thompson or a Hamlet for that matter with a Benjamin's Best. I bought the one just to see what it was about and I will find a use for it down the road. It just certainly won't be my "go to" weapon of choice, for sure. Just no weight to it. Haven't used it enough to see how well it holds an edge, yet. But I think dried bodark will probably hurt it's feelings. And all the bodark I have right now is quite dry. :D I'm going to be sitting down mid week and putting together another resupply order for sanding and so on and will be ordering one of those Thompson's. I remember a turner named Blair Davis said turners are basically tool nuts. Guess I fall into that category.
 
I'm going to be a bit controversial here and will probably be shot down in flames, I use the Benjamin's best because when I bought that was what I could afford and I'm a little bit of a Scots Jew... I don't believe in spending money for names.... I've used them for most of the time I've been turning. I did buy Hurricane tools the last time as they were the same or near the same price as the BB's but had a slightly longer handle. They work equally as well and I'm thinking I'll buy them again. I've actually tried a Sorby and didn't like it... it may well be that it was a borrowed tool and I was just uncomfortable using another man's tool, and it may have been ground a little differently than mine... can't say. It's also my opinion (which may be worth exactly what you paid for it) that there are only so many steel makers in the world and a lot of the different name tools often will be using the same steel manufacturer. I do know that Sorby says they use Sheffield steel, but don't know what the others use... suspect both BB and Hurricane are using a Chinese steel - don't know that for fact - I'm pretty certain that the tool manufacturers don't make their own steel... that would likely require a set up more extensive than would be feasible for a smaller manufacturer. And not being an expert on steel manufacture, I suspect there isn't a lot of variation in the make up of one high speed steel to another.

All that said, I don't think the name on a particular tool has as much to do with what the results as does the hands holding the tool... we get used to certain tools either for the name or weight or what ever criteria we set as our regards for the tool, then as we become accustom to the tool and develop our skills, we attribute it to the tool when in fact the attribute should go to the hands on the tool.
 
Chuck, the most important thing it that you use what you're comfortable with and what you can afford. No flames here, bud. :thumb:

Regarding steel, as far as I know, no other turning tool manufacturer is using the same steel Doug Thompson uses. It's a cryogenically treated powdered metal that's engineered to hold an edge longer than other tool steels. He buys it direct from the company that makes it, and they make it to his spec. His prices are higher than Benjamin's Best or some of the other similar tools, but they are considerably lower than the "premium" brand names out there, and they perform better than those premium brands (in my opinion). Like I said earlier, Doug keeps his prices down by selling the tools directly to his customers with no middlemen. That's why you'll never see Thompson tools in a catalog or at the local store.
 
What Vaughn says is right. You should go with what works for you. Obviously the higher quality of steel, the better the tool. Whether you are talking about bowl gouges or any other kind of tool. For example on the chains I buy for my saws. Even though they are always supposed to be the same, some sharpen up better than others and some hold the sharpness better. So, if Benjamin's Best tools work for you, then certainly by all means use them. Ain't gonna even attempt to shoot than down. uhuh :thumb:
 
I believe Hurricane and maybe a couple others are using CPM 10V now as well as Thompson. The 10V behaves similar to the 2060 that Hamlet uses, but Doug generally wins the price point.

Alan Lacer has a nice short article on lathe tool steel on his site:
http://woodturninglearn.net/articles.htm

Chuck you're definitely right all of this is just very slightly delaying the inevitable and there's cost trade-offs along the way so there's no "right answer". I figured the BB and Thompson looked awfully close to a price wash some the Thompson is about 3x the cost of the BB, but looks to last about 3x as long. Having tried it I think the wee bit of time saved sharpening works out marginally in my favor so that's my phony math and I'm sticking to it unless something else changes my mind ;)
 
There is another point that I have to take into consideration. I did a little bit of price comparisons. The Thompson 5/8", as with all his tools according to him, are measured on the shaft diameter, not the flute. So, to get a gouge that's around 5/8" at the flute, which is what I need, the Thompson will cost $115.00 and that is no handle. Either spend about $50 for one of his or make my own. I can buy a 5/8 Hamlet from Craft Supplies for $90.00. I don't mind spending money on good stuff. But, I haven't won the lottery either. With my new slow wet sharpening system, the Hamlet will last even longer than it did. I usually had to replace it maybe once a year. For the amount of turning that I normally do I don't consider that bad at all. The 1/2" is my solid "go to" weapon and it lasts several months. Guess I may have to back peddle and stay with the Hamlets. I do echo what Frank had said earlier about the Henry Taylor gouges. Ugh. Never again. In a pinch I would go with a PM Crown.
 
Your reasoning makes sense, Dave. :thumb: I didn't realize the Thompsons were that much more expensive than the same size of Hamlet. I've got one of the first 3/4" bowl gouges Doug made, but it was part of a barter deal (with the late Randy Privett of Monster Lathe Tools), so I didn't know what the price was. (Randy gave it to me because he didn't have a need for one that big. It's my go-to roughing tool, but I've also turned plenty of small stiuff with it, like bottle stoppers.) From the looks of things, I believe Doug Thompson's prices have gone up some since I last bought any gouges from him.
 
Hamlets and several others are Sheffield steel. I missed "The Full Monty" so not sure of the point, but I bet it has some humor involved. But, I ran through several brands and for several reasons I settled on Hamlet. Actually a turner friend of mine (retired now) in Worksop, England told me about them. Almost all of my turning tools are Hamlets now. Used to have the 3/4" bowl gouge they make and was going to replace it a little while back but the suppliers for that one are limited. The one I used out of Richardson, Texas went out of business a little bit ago. :eek: Got to find another one now.
 
FYI the Craft supplies Hamlet gouges ones are M2 steel not the fancy 2060 Powdered metal they also (used to?) have available. Not sure what your older ones would have been but probably M2 which is what their standard line is made out of. Packard apparently used to carry the 2030 and 2060 based gouges but don't appear to anymore.

Most of the M2 gouges will behave similarly unless they really messed up the heat treatment (there is some variation in what is called "M2" but most of its coming from the same couple of foundries). The tests I saw for the BB tools had them being 4-5 RC softer than some of the other manufacturers M2 tools so you wouldn't expect them to hold as long as those (that was an older test and anecdotal evidence from my own use indicates a fairly substantial variation in quality with the BB tools).

These are the ones in 2030/2060 steel.
http://www.hamletcrafttools.co.uk/aspindex.html

I haven't found anyone in the US with the 2030/2060 gouges online (well gary pye had one 1/4" gouge in 2030 for $85 :eek:):
http://www.hamletcrafttools.co.uk/stockists.html

Actually it looks like the 2030/2060 line may be mostly discontinued because they had trouble sourcing the steel for it.. http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Turning_Tools/Hamlet_Tools/Hamlet_Gouge/hamlet_gouge.html

Crown has a powdered metal line as well now: http://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/page61.html
Arbitrary US stockist: https://woodworker.com/5-piece-pro-pm-turning-set-mssu-137-093.asp

Comparing the Thompson to most other 10V based gouges they're still relatively cheap (premium metal, premium price):
http://www.glaserhitec.com/shop/glaser-hitec-34-bottom-bowl-gouge-2/

I guess this is a long way of saying that without knowing the Hamlet gouge you get today may not be the same one you got yesterday and comparing apples to apples is kind of half way between impractical and impossible.
 
Top