Rip cut teeth or cross cut teeth for dovetails?

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Hi there.

I wonder if any of you can enlighten me on this.

Cross cut and rip cut teeth saws are used for what their name stands for or so I understood.

However, what type of saw does use any of us for cutting dovetails? I'm asking this because each time I have to make dovetails by hand I get mixed and disorientating feelings and results, sometimes they turn out perfect with a rip saw, others don't and they turn out great with a crosscut saw.

Lack of experience maybe?? Size of teeth(not mine, thes saw's ones:eek: ) respect ot wood thickness??

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
 
Rip saws are what are generally used. I have the Lie-Nielsen saw, works pretty well. I'm thinking of ordering a Wenzloff saw with a more custom configuration...

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

I have one of Mike's saws with bubinga handle and they are mighty nice. I haven't used it yet though but they are supposed to work as nicely as they look. I am a pretty big guy and Mike fit the handle based on my hand.
 
I have one of Mike's saws with bubinga handle and they are mighty nice. I haven't used it yet though but they are supposed to work as nicely as they look. I am a pretty big guy and Mike fit the handle based on my hand.

Yeah, that's part of the reason I am thinking of upgrading for the LN to a Wenzloff. The handle on the LN doesn't fit my hand really well, wish it were a little bigger. It starts a little hard too.
 
I started with a Japanese stye crosscut, but it cut very slowly, and while doing so, rattled around in the kerf making it fairly rough. At first I thought it was just my technique, but then tried an Adria western style rip and all was well with the world. The Japanese saw works beautifully on crosscuts though. What took 40 to 50 strokes on the crosscut could be done in 8 or 9 with the rip, and much cleaner to boot. I would like to try a nice Japanese rip saw though.

Dan
 
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I have two japanese saws a double sided Ryoba and a Dozuki. The ripteeh on the Ryoba are to big and apart to cut dovetails while both the Ryoba crosscut and the Dozuki crosscut teeth are great for tenons and other joinery.

However, ¿What would be a good ratio of theeth/inch on a rip saw either western or japanese to get a good cut when making dovetails? The rest would be a matter of preference and budget of course.:(.

Thanks
 
Toni,

I think the ppi for a dovetail saw depends a lot on the thickness of the stock you're cutting: the thinner the stock the more teeth. For general furniture making with stock between 1/2" to 1 1/4" a 14 to 16 ppi Western style rip saw will be just fine. I think the Lie-Nielsen is 15 ppi. I have one and it works fine in most materials. I also have a 23 ppi Tyzak that is almost useless because it cuts too slow. One of these years, I'm going to send it out to be retoothed with fewer teeth.

I recently purchased a Mitsukawa rip dozuki from Kayoko at Misugi Designs. I haven't counted the teeth, but it clearly has a coarser tooth pattern than my Mitsukawa crosscut dozuki. It looks to be 11 to 13 ppi, maybe less. I haven't counted it. It has taken some getting used to after using a Western style saw, but cuts very smoothly and fast in American hardwoods and I am beginning to like it a lot.

The big thing is practice. Don't get hung up on whether Western or Japanese saws are better for dovetails. You can cut good dovetails with either one. Pick one style and stick with it until you get proficient. Then, if you are so inclined, try the other style saw. If you switch back and forth between Western and Japanese saws looking for the "Secret to Cutting Dovetails," you'll prolong the learning curve and you'll probably get frustrated in the process.

My $.02

Hank
 
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Late to the party, but it's never too late to put my foot in my mouth.

Look at your wood if you want to know which to use, crosscut or rip. Use the proper saw that works for the grain you're cutting.

A lot of people generalize and say a rip works best, but that is considering that you will be cutting with the grain, which is typically how dovetails are cut, as well as that you will be doing that most of the time and don't want to have both saws on hand. Do yourself a favor, get both.

What about cutting across the grain to cut the half tail from the end as you clean the tails? Yes, you can use a fine toothed rip saw for that, but a crosscut is best for that task, IMO, if you're cutting across the grain. Remember that cutting tenon cheeks will require cutting across the grain for most joinery work also. Dovetails are not the only consideration. Laps, tenons, and even dovetails do have both with and across the grain cutting involved, depending on the grain orientation of the wood being used and the angles of the cut. Sometimes either pattern will work.

The simple answer is use a rip saw to cut with the grain, and use a crosscut saw to cut across it. No matter what someone tells you, it all depends on the orientation of the grain and/or how you're cutting in relations to it, no matter what any expert says. I'm certainly no expert so take what I say with a grain of wood, err...I mean salt, if you like.<g>

I prefer to have both, rip and crosscut, but you can use an old dull butter knife if it works for you and produces the quality of work you find acceptable.
 
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What would be a good ratio of theeth/inch on a rip saw either western or japanese to get a good cut when making dovetails?
Once again, it will depend on the wood you're using. If you need to cut joinery in 8/4 stock, you will need at least 2.75" of blade height, since you will need the same amount for depth as you will thickness as you lay out your joinery.

If you're working in 4/4, you only need to worry about .75"-1" in most cases.

IMO, a smaller dovetail saw, which has about 1.5"-2" of cutting depth, and is 8"-10" long is a comfortable (and easier to control) saw for most people. Some folks prefer larger teeth and larger blades. Some feel it's easier to control a larger saw, but most people tend to like the smaller saws. It's really a personal preference, although I believe the stock will dictate the size of saw in many cases. And you can always use a bigger saw to cut smaller joinery. Owning a single 12" saw with 3" of depth that is filed rip at about 14 ppi will handle most work for most people, but what is "most"?;)

I like saws, so think everyone should have a nice assortment of them, just as they do chisels and/or planes. Certainly it's not the tools but the craftsman, as they say, but it's nice to have more tools than less, in my experience. Look for used saws in 2nd hand stores, there must be some around Spain, I bet there's some old and very cool tools there (saws included).

Crown makes such an 8" gent's saw that is a nice saw, once re-sharpened. Out of the box it's fairly useless. There are lots of old saws available if you can sharpen them yourself, otherwise it gets expensive to send out to folks to sharpen...it's kinda like having someone change your diapers for you...

The real interesting thing the Japanese did was to create throw-away saws that were much sharper than western style counter parts, and in some cases you couldn't even find handsaws. With more quality saws, there are more folks using western style saws again. The Mitsukawa rip filed saw is different, it's made for cutting hardwood, but most dozukis don't cut hardwood worth a crap, not the cheaper throw aways. There are a couple that do, evidentally, but the majority of them don't and can't be filed as they're impulse hardened steel. Give me a regular old western style saw (although most derived out of europe) and a $5 file anyday.
 
Toni,
"The big thing is practice. Don't get hung up on whether Western or Japanese saws are better for dovetails. You can cut good dovetails with either one" ---- "If you switch back and forth between Western and Japanese saws looking for the "Secret to Cutting Dovetails," you'll prolong the learning curve and you'll probably get frustrated in the process."
Hank

Hi Hank thanks for your two cents, I completely agree with you there are no secrets, well... yes only one "PRACTICE" as you say. I have been using only one saw I got from my father for many years and I've gone quite well away with it crosscutting and ripping without being aware that there could be different saws for it. ( Problems of being self taught:eek: )

It was a surprise to me to find out about 5 years ago that there were different types of teeth/saws to use depending on the way you were cutting.

The first time I used a crosscut saw it was delight to see how clean it left the edges of the cut, sparing me a lot of time in finishing up cuts, and it made a big difference to me.

As far as japanese or western saws are concerned I'm not against any of them, my motto is " it is good if it works for you".
 
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