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Minneapolis, Minnesota disaster

Yeah Robert, I agree with you on the low bid thing. Going on price alone is a recipe for disaster. Not all public works jobs go to the lowest bid, though. I worked on a lot of projects (and even awarded a few testing contracts) that weren't let to the lowest bidder, though. The contractor's ability to do the job right is also usually considered along with the price.
 
This stuck in my mind........

As I sat in the capsule awaiting liftoff, I looked around at all of the machinery in front of me…and it occurred to me that everything was built by the lowest bidder.
-Alan Shepard, Freedom 7
First American in Space
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I just came home over the Baton Rouge La. Mississippe River bridge in bad weather with stop and go traffic and I would estimate semi trucks in the hundreds on the bridge at one time. As many know the bridge is very long and high. The vibration was so bad that it was shaking my body in my pickup. I was a little more than concerned and as it turns out my concern may have been somewhat justified. I do not know how anyone could build a bridge that could stand up to this kind of weight and vibration but it has for a long time now. What an amazing feat. I just hope that our bridges continue to function with no more failures.

Next time I am not going over a major bridge loaded with commerical trucks unless the traffic is moving so that I can minimize my time on the structure. I guess that this is like someone not flying because of one accident but I did not like it up there and that is good enought for me.
 
Vaughn did a much better job of expressing what I am thinking than I did.

I'll add one more comment, however. It's one thing to complain but another to suggest ways to improve things. Robert, if you would not award contracts to the lowest qualified bidder, how would you award them?

I would suggest that our method of awarding contracts is something like the Churchill's comment: "Democracy is the worse of all governments except all the others that have been tried."

Mike
 
Thanks to all for the well wishes. I cross that bridge about once a week.
Live about 20 minutes away.
It is a mess and very sad for those that still don't have a confirmation of loved ones. Many cars are still under water restricting search and recovery.
Talk about messing up traffic.
I guess the biggest concern is, they say MN is #3 in best maintained bridges:dunno: Makes you think
 
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Mike Henderson said:
Vaughn did a much better job of expressing what I am thinking than I did.

I'll add one more comment, however. It's one thing to complain but another to suggest ways to improve things. Robert, if you would not award contracts to the lowest qualified bidder, how would you award them?

I would suggest that our method of awarding contracts is something like the Churchill's comment: "Democracy is the worse of all governments except all the others that have been tried."

Mike
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1 make them post a bond, and warranty the work.
of course the hard part is getting the repairs speced right in the first place. I don't blame the contractor that paved our road. I blame the county. They wanted the road paved and that was what they got. They should have specified that places that needed attention get that attention.

They are paving state route 170 over in town, they actually dug up the edge of the road down about 3 feet backfilled it in layers of 304 and rolled it with this nifty roller that had 2 foot wide rollers on one side and tires on the other. Why? the edges of the road where giving way from truck traffic. who ever was in charge decided there was a problem and saw that it got fixed.

The problem isn't just the low bid, oh though that contributes to it.
the problem is when the government worries about the bottom line today and not in the long term. I keep saying you can't build cheap and expect it to last. It's next to impossible to change the mindset of our government.

It wouldn't have cost more than $4,000 more to fix the road I live on right. as it is they have all ready been out here twice tossing cold patch in the holes. That alone has probably cost them a grand.

Yeah I know vote em out of office :rolleyes: The next one in makes lots of promises, gets elected. fixes one problem and screws up three more. Ok vote him out, next one in makes all kind of promises fixes one problem screws up 3 more.
Lather rinse repeat. :rolleyes:
 
Mike Henderson said:
Perhaps you should run for office.

Mike
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He's too honest...he wouldn't fit in at all. :rofl:

Robert, as far as I know, on every project I worked, the contractor did post bonds and supplied a warranty.

Fully agree about the shortsighted approach to fixing things, though. That one fits governments, companies, and individuals...I can think of examples of all three.
 
Vaughn McMillan said:
Fully agree about the shortsighted approach to fixing things, though. That one fits governments, companies, and individuals...I can think of examples of all three.
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Yep, I have seen it all also and agree with you.


Vaughn McMillan said:
He's too honest...he wouldn't fit in at all. :rofl:.
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I know you offered this in jest, but it is only when honest, caring people step up to serve in politics that we get good government.

The reason it appears that politics "corrupts" even honest people is that the easy problems are handled quickly and quietly. It's the difficult problems that make life so tough for politicians - the kind of problems that will create unhappy people no matter what decision is made. Because politicians have to get elected, they avoid those kinds of decisions. I think spending money to "do things right" is one of those difficult problems. The benefit of doing things right will not be apparent for a long time, probably longer than the politician will be in office. But the penalty for spending more money is a today problem - maybe higher taxes or other services not provided.

It's difficult for the voters to know all of these things and demand the right decision. Often voters will sieze on the simple message - the politician spent more money than "necessary" on a project - rather than the complex message that the politician was trying to minimize long term costs.

Mike
 
Mike Henderson said:
Perhaps you should run for office.

Mike
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I wouldn't last a week, I would either shoot someone or get shot. :rofl: It's bad enough you can see the fear when 2 out of 3 trustees spot me at township meetings.. The only reason they never make me leave is I'm usually sitting with probably the two richest guys in the township. :D

Vaughn, Most of the bonds I'm familiar with usually have to do with completing on time. Maybe things work different in California. How long was that warranty for? I've never seen a contractor around here out fixing a road. Anytime you see a road being patched the county, state, city, or township is out doing it.
I suppose they could be billing the contractor for it, but given the amount of corruption here in the valley (you have heard of Jim Trafficant?) I doubt it happens
 
Robert Mickley said:
I wouldn't last a week, I would either shoot someone or get shot. :rofl: It's bad enough you can see the fear when 2 out of 3 trustees spot me at township meetings.. The only reason they never make me leave is I'm usually sitting with probably the two richest guys in the township. :D

Vaughn, Most of the bonds I'm familiar with usually have to do with completing on time. Maybe things work different in California. How long was that warranty for? I've never seen a contractor around here out fixing a road. Anytime you see a road being patched the county, state, city, or township is out doing it.
I suppose they could be billing the contractor for it, but given the amount of corruption here in the valley (you have heard of Jim Trafficant?) I doubt it happens
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I doubt if the contractor would have to post a bond for the repair of the road. The cost of the bond would just get included in the cost of the contract. I expect the government body uses inspections to verify the work as it's being done and then assumes responsibility for the repairs.

I imagine the contractor would have so many escape routes relating to the specifications - and whether the road failed because of the specifications - that the "guarantee" would be useless. Also, the government body would likely spend so much money trying to enforce the "guarantee" in the courts that they're better off taking the inspection route.

Mike
 
We got an e-mail from our friend there. He works (teaches?) at the University and said he is less than a mile from the bridge. Some of his architech students rushed over and helped pull people out of the river until emergency personel got there. Said that they were still pretty shaken up yesterday about their experience. Terry said he rarely uses the bridge since he lives the opposite direction in St. Paul.
Continued prayers for those waiting for the answers they need so healing and closure can begin. Jim.
 
Robert Mickley said:
......the problem is when the government worries about the bottom line today and not in the long term...
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I work on the principle that any sentence that uses the word "government" as a noun can have that noun substituted for "voters" and have the same, or usually a more accurate, meaning. As has been said, democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
 
There was a section of road rebuilt near here about 8-10 years ago where the contractor was to guarantee the road for a period of something like 10 years and be responsible for all repairs. It is a pretty nice road. Last year it was milled a couple inches and resurfaced, I believe as part of that warranty. The purpose of that was to reseal and smooth the top surface which will inevitably crack during the freeze-thaw cycles. However, that is the only time I've heard of a major contract like that around here so I'm assuming that MDOT decided that it wasn't a success. Like Mike said, how do you determine if the failure was the result of bad specifications, bad engineering, bad construction, or bad materials. Here the state is responsible for many of the standard specifications and may or may not hire a consultant for the engineering. The major contractors, at least around here, are not doing the engineering, though there is a trend towards design-build projects where the engineeering fim and contractor may bid together with one acting as prime. If you have a costly failure, everyones going to end up in court and only the lawyers are going to come out ahead.

This bridge was 40 years old. It was built before there were changes in standards for bridge design (which continue to occur and I'm sure more will come after this.) They are estimating its replacement will cost $250M which is probably less than it would have cost had they designed the replacement to be built while keeping the road open. There are 1000's of other bridges that need replacement as well. We (the voters) repeatedly tell government that we aren't willing to pay for more. We (the drivers) scream whenever they close "our" roads to work on them. Then we scream when they don't work on them. If last week the state of Minnesota had proposed closing 35W for the next say 3 years and spending $250M on that bridge people would have been protesting in the streets (maybe I'm exaggerating, but there would have at a minimum been some pretty heated hearings.) Obviously today not too many would complain. But in 5-10 years when everyone has fogotten about this it will be the same story again. What's a government to do? Some have turned roads over to private companies. When the first failure happens on one of those roads, the first thing everyone is going to scream is "corporate greed" without knowing any facts.

It is also a scary and unfortunate fact of life that there is going to be a certain percentage of failures of engineering and materials no matter how much we spend. Look at all the safety work that goes on with airplanes--yet we still lose one now and then for reasons not due to pilot error. Hidden defects go unseen. Parts break unexpectedly. Unforseen conditions occur. Things we never thought of as particularly dangerous turn out to be. Its easy to stand back after the fact, point fingers and blame everyone for what they should have known or should have done. Ever make a decision that in hind sight wasn't the best one? Did you learn from it?

None of it is any consolation for the 13 or so families that lost loved ones.
 
Tragedies like this are especially disconcerting because we can all put ourselves in the victims shoes. I'm thankful the early casualty estimates are proving to be wrong with fewer deaths. And it sounds like the first responders as well as the other government agencies investigating have had their acts together - a very good sign.

Wes
 
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