Genetically Engineered Forests and Wood

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I just read an interesting article on genetically engineered forests. Maybe some of you have heard of this and maybe some of you have not. Basically this is beyond grafting a few similar trees to make new trees, but genetically altering them so the good traits of one tree species are added so that a whole new tree is created.

I must be pretty dumb because it took me reading half the article before I realized I have, and have been growing, twelve acres of these Genetically Engineered trees for the last 15 years.

The article comes from the environmentalist side and feels these trees will invade the eco system and native forest and ruin them. I disagree as the GE trees I have, just won't grow anywhere but in a plantation onto their own. They just can't survive in a native forests, but excell at growing in former pasture and crop ground. In fact I planted my tress in 1994 and was told to harvest them this year by a forester. They are 10 inches in diameter and 50 feet hight which is pretty good growth for a tree.

The trees I have are Japanese Larch and have some unique properties. They grow fast and have the life-span equivalent of pressure treated wood without the nature preservative. Most are used to make wooden flooring in peoples homes, as well as posts and framing lumber to replace pressure-treated wood.

So my question is, as woodworkers how would you feel about using GE trees in your workshop?

My take is, no matter if I am using them for framing lumber, flooring or even to sell to the paper companies to make paper, I have grown 320 cords of wood in 13 years that never existed before.

Here is a link to that GE newspaper article for those that are interested...

http://www.alternet.org/environment/58477/
 
kinda hard to say what`s worse travis....genetic engineered trees or trees grown on plantations fed rich mixtures of vitamins and growth additives sprayed with fungicides and insecticides their entire life......there`s really no telling where the majority of lumber i cut comes from? most is domestic hardwood but to say it was grown au-natural and was never manuplitated by man untill harvest would be a far strech of anyones imagination...
a tree hugger i ain`t.....if somebody could figure out how to clone curly cherry that`d have fantastic color and dramatic figure in 6 months on the moon i`d build with it so long as i could afford to buy it...
tod
 
I've been working with Lyptus for a couple of years and love the look, feel, and weight of the wood. Knowing it's plantation grown, grows fast, and has been bred for specific traits is a plus for me - not a negative. Yes, I work for the company that grows the stuff, but that really dosen't affect my viewpoint. It's neat wood and would be even if our competitor grew it!
 
Tossing out any new phrase then planting the seeds of fear around that phrase is a standard tactic of nutsos environmentalists. Genetically engineered products have not been shown to be harmful to anything. Granted, they have not yet been proven to be completely safe either. Hybrid, grafting and other methods have been around for many decades, all that is, technically, genetic engineering. I believe that some very sophisitcated methods for developing better pinapple was developed more than a century and a half ago. Use the wood. Don't sweat it unless definitive scientific proof comes along that there is a problem.
 
There was a movie a bunch of years ago about geneticly engineered plants that would clone your body and take over your mind whilst you slept. As for what Franks says, I go along with ....Just don't sleep in your shop. :rofl:

There are some toxic trees out there but most are ornimental or have some special figured or colored wood that we are willing to risk the results to be able to make something from the beauty of that tree. But to worry about working with a new species is sort of like saying it is a Communist plot to re-engineer a species and the toxins will make all WWers curl up and die, leaving the Capitalistic world w/o woodgoods and slowly decline as a civilization leaving the world to their control w/o firing a single shot. :eek:
 
Hi Travis - My last project was from reclaimed wine vat oak, and I touched a bit on the very subject of wood designed specifically for harvesting in one of my responses. There's certainly no harm in growing it and using it that I know of, although my personal preference is for the more varied appearance of the natural varieties of old growth trees. I really like the idea of growing and dropping my own trees for lumber though....it's got to be pretty cool to make something from a tree that you grew! :thumb:
 
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Frank, I respectfully disagree with most of what you said! Of course maybe I'm a 'nutsos' :dunno:

Genetic engineering is dramatically different than grafting, hybridizing, selective breding, etc. All of our former methods of creating 'new' plants or animals are a form of natural selection (Darwin, dudes!). Out of thousands (or millions) of offspring from a cross, we pick ones that have characteristics we want. Cross two corn types, raise millions of plants, keep and propagate the one that is sweet, makes big ears and is resistant to rust. It's complicated and lots of work but we are starting with nothing but corn and ending with corn. We are directing a natural process.

GE takes the genetic material from one organism and inserts it in another. The organisms don't have to be related - they don't even have to be in the same kingdom! THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN NATURE. We are redirecting a natural process.

Using the corn example above, take corn, insert genetic material from a bacteria or an animal. Produce corn that makes it's own insecticide! :eek::eek::eek: On the surface this sounds good. Would you like to eat corn that contains insecticide? How about eating cattle fed this corn? What effects does this have on beneficial insects?

Is it safe? I don't know!

Do I trust the government and big business to tell me the truth? Well, let's see, they have ALWAYS told the truth so I'll believe them now -- NOT!!

Are there any longterm negative effects? Ecosystems are so complex there is no way to tell if these GE experiments will cause havoc in the next 10, 20 or 30 years.

Sorry about the rant, I'll get off the soapbox (for now :) ).

Tossing out any new phrase then planting the seeds of fear around that phrase is a standard tactic of nutsos environmentalists. Genetically engineered products have not been shown to be harmful to anything. Granted, they have not yet been proven to be completely safe either. Hybrid, grafting and other methods have been around for many decades, all that is, technically, genetic engineering. I believe that some very sophisitcated methods for developing better pinapple was developed more than a century and a half ago. Use the wood. Don't sweat it unless definitive scientific proof comes along that there is a problem.
 
John - While I do not necessarily disagree (or agree) with much of your sentiment, genetics are big and complicated and usually badly reported in most media.

The problem with statements like "this cannot happen in nature" is that nature is very, very big and "cannot" is a very imprecise word to use against it. I am not by any regards an expert but I do read a lot in this area and am particularly interested in evolutionary theory. The idea that genetic material organises itself discretely into kingdoms is just wrong. Man orders the effects of gentic material into "kingdoms" for his own purposes. A reasonable proportion of the genetic material of a man and a banana are identical. Nature made it that way. Homo sapiens and bananas are fairly easy to seperate taxonomically. Genetic material doesn't know (or care) about speciation.

The difference between genetic engineering and selective breeding is about precision and speed. The downside to genetic engineering is its capacity to create a modified organism in a single generation which may have unforeseen negative characteristics. Selective breeding only produces its unforeseen negative characteristics more slowly. The upside to genetic engineering is that it can produce foreseen and desired characteristics more reliably and quicker.

I sometimes think that the reason people trust selective breeding is that it is done by farmers not scientists and nobody ever made a Bond movie with a mad farmer as the villian.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I do not work for, sell or use GE material as far as I am aware but neither would I resist doing so if it offered a better alternative.
 
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John, I only wish to deliberately offend the real "nutsos". ;) Not you. I consider myself a good environmentalist. But I probably wouldn't meet the standards of others. No matter. You are probably a good one without going over the nusto edge. My concern that extremists can interject fear into almost any issue and get wisespread media coverage easier than level heads can is, I believe, valid. You have the scientific background. I don't. We both agree that there is still no proof that g-e products are beneficial/harmful to humans. But, they have been around long enough, I believe that if they were harmful some solid facts would have emerged by now. In Arkansas, and I'm sure many other states, entire shipments of corn have been rejected by foriegn countries because very tiny percentages of the product were found to contain some g-e kernels. This without any evidence that they might be harmful. That extremism wanders well into the 'nutso' world, IMHO.
 
I was hoping to keep this conversation contained to Genetically Engineered Forest Products and not agricultural products as that subject is very tenacious as it is something we eat. I will however admit, that as dairy farmers, we do grow corn that is genetically engineered and really like how we can produce a crop for our cows more easily and readily.

To me anyway, and maybe as a landowner who grows GE forest products, I am biased in saying this, I felt the article was filled with doomsday predictions. The GE trees I grow, Japense Larch, also known as Hackmatack, cannot grow in anything other than clearcuts and old crop ground. With these trees anyway, they can invade my other 300 acres of woodland because they just won't grow without being planted, or being out of a full-sun environment.

One of these reasons I chose to plant this type of wood, was that the 12 acres I planted, were small fields. The farmer who rents my fields felt they were too small to harvest effectively with his big equipment. I could have chosen better wood to plant...that is wood that is destined for logs and sawmills like White Pine, Spruce, Ash or Oak. Instead I chose these because the growth period was so short. Its still good woodlot management however because I am growing some 300 cord of wood in addition tomy other wood types that grow naturally. In other words, while this GE wood will most likely be made into paper, I now have the option of letting some 300 cord of Pine, Fir, Spruce or Hemlock grow up and have the potential to become big enough for logs. That is good for all woodworkers, carpenters, home contractors and other homeowners.

For those that are interested, I currently have three types of tree plantations. A white Pine tree plantation, a Black Spruce plantation and the Hackmatack Plantation. You can see some pictures of what these tree plantations look like, and some descriptions of them via this link:

http://www.railroadmachinist.com/WDL_Trees.html
 
It seems your post generated several of us to expound with grandure and idiot like speaches and forget the primus of the post. Is the question , "Am I creating a danger to the surrounding habitat and plant groth by growing these GE trees?

Sort of like bringing in non native species of plants to help curtail other problems and creating bigger problems. In the 60s they imported Kadzu to the US to grow on hillside and provide fodder for calves and such makes a great ground cover , etc. but it turns out the vine will kill a telephone pole. It growes rampit in the south and will devistate an area and all that it covers if left un attended. Bad idea.... Are you contributating to such an event? I don't know but you do harvest them, right? Will they propigate by their own? Is it it a Hybrid and unable to reproduce on its own?
 
Hey Bill, I resemble that remark! :eek:

If the trees aren't GE'd to produce insecticides, I would think there could be little harm.

I wonder what they GE into them? Travis, do they have a patent or trade name? Perhaps you said and I'll go back and look. :eek:

It seems your post generated several of us to expound with grandure and idiot like speaches and forget the primus of the post. Is the question , "Am I creating a danger to the surrounding habitat and plant groth by growing these GE trees?

Sort of like bringing in non native species of plants to help curtail other problems and creating bigger problems. In the 60s they imported Kadzu to the US to grow on hillside and provide fodder for calves and such makes a great ground cover , etc. but it turns out the vine will kill a telephone pole. It growes rampit in the south and will devistate an area and all that it covers if left un attended. Bad idea.... Are you contributating to such an event? I don't know but you do harvest them, right? Will they propigate by their own? Is it it a Hybrid and unable to reproduce on its own?
 
I would also question the original article that you linked to. They mentioned NZ as being part of research into GM trees (along with with several other countries). GM is basically banned in NZ, well unless a company does so much paperwork it's not worth it.

Yes the trees we plant have been selectively bred, cloned and in some cases hybridised. But none have had their genes spliced in a lab. They are still genetically Radiata pine trees, just they grow faster, straighter and less branches.

A hybrid tree may also be sterile and not produce any viable seed (like the chinese hybrid poplars), so it only grows from cuttings. Often a good thing if you are planting exotic plantation trees, no seeds to be spread by wind and birds, but easy to produce more trees from cuttings.

Now if you are planting radiata pine seedlings you can expect about a %100 improvement on your $ return if you use 'improved' (but not GM) seedlings over just any random seedlings, because almost all the trees grow faster and into better formed trees. Thats why it's done, and why you can get cheap pine out of NZ or cheap Lyptus out of Sth America.

I just see the article as a bit of a scaremonger thing, lumping anything thats not a wild 'natural' tree as some sort of GM 'monster'. When you go and plant a carrot or potato you dont just plant some random wild vegetable. You plant a variety that been selectively bred for a few hundred years to grow big, taste good and resist disease. Why wouldn't you do the same with a tree?

Cheers

Ian
 
They are a hybrid-Tree so they can not be reseeded on their own. So far the only issues I have had is with the European Larch Bark beedle. What happens is, the tree gets stressed for whatever reason, then the sap suckers come in and peck at the sap that is oozing out of the tree. After that the bark beedle moves into the holes left by the sap suckers and eventually kills the tree.

Just last month I had the Maine Forest Service Pathologist come in and check out these trees. Apparently my plantation does not have the European Canker disease which is killing some plantations a few towns over from me. That is good news anyway. Every year a lose a few trees to this pest, but overall my planation is doing very well.

It would seem that this is inviting disease into the existing forest, but while people get all cranked up about this stuff, we have been through several infestations here and survived. The Chestnut blight, and the the new Ash Borer get people very scared, but after you have been through the Spruce Budworm Epidemic, the Hackmatack Beedle, White Pine Blister Rust and White Pine Bark Weevil, you'll realize that it takes a lot for me to get scared. The US Forest Service and the Maine Forest Service have good resources and do a lot to help the small woodlot owner. I am blessed in that area I guess.
 
It seems your post generated several of us to expound with grandure and idiot like speaches and forget the primus of the post.

Geez Bill, kinda harsh? I think if I was going to call someone an idiot, I'd at least run that baby through a spell checker first!
 
Some folks read into a person's comments, all kinds of ideas... If you read again I spoke of "US" meaning WE as in talking about myself included. I in no way called anybody an idiot, I was remarking that some of US made light of the original query posted. If you are offended I appologize. But it is getting to the point of political correctness, I am afraid to say or write anything for fear someone will get their shorts in a wad (sorry I didn't mean to omit anyone , I should include panties as well...Oh wait, I forgot abbout the thong wearers, and the long johns or tighty whities.... heaven fobid I forget those who don't wear anything :eek: )


Here I go , I probably lashed out against someone but thats the way I am.... Politically & socially uncooth and a clod....

As for Using GE wood in a shop, Aside from the hugh growth rings which I interperate as a softer wood, I see no reason to disreguard it as a possible project material, even with soft grain, it may be of use for a particular task. Unless it is proven to have toxic resins or "juices" or the dust is caustic,I see no reason to fear it.
 
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bill, i wasn`t the least bit offended......and your appoligy had me spewing my tea on the keyboard....thanks.....i think?
tod
 
Heck Bill, I'm not offended, I'm just indulging in an unfortunate enjoyment of a sense of irony. Not quite sure why this warrants the dreaded politically correct label, but whatever, as you say, people read all sorts of things into one's comments.
 
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