Visit to an Amish Woodworking Shop

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Villa Park, CA
I just returned from a week visit with the in-laws in PA, around Selinsgrove. My brother-in-law and his wife are getting a table and chairs made by an Amish woodworker, Mr. Brubaker (I didn't get his first name), and took me to his shop. It was an interesting visit. His shop is exactly like any other commercial woodworking shop - except that he doesn't use electricity and doesn't have any lighting except the natural light through the windows.

He has all the regular tools - a DeWalt miter saw, a Delta table saw, a Woodtek jointer, a shaper, router, planer, a couple of lathes, dust collection, etc. He also has a finishing room with a modern spray gun with a pot. Any of you would feel right at home in his shop.

He powers all the tools with flexible drive shafts driven by a diesel engine. I don't know exactly how the power is coupled to the shafts but there's obviously some type of clutch on each shaft so that you can turn on each tool when you want to use it.

It was quite enjoyable talking with Mr. Brubaker. He's about late 30's to early 40's with three kids who work in the shop - two boys and a girl. When we arrived, the boys were turning wooden knobs on a lathe - he's known for wooden knobs and sells them to other woodworkers. The lathe is jigged up so that all the boys have to do is mount the blank and then use a "duplicating tool" to cut the knob. There was a plastic shield over the work so the boys could see the cutting but have protection.

My conversation with Mr. Brubaker was exactly like one I'd have with you if I visited your shop. I asked him about his tools and how he powers them, and how he modifies them for the drive shaft. He seemed to enjoy talking about the shop and the tools and the problems he's encountered.

He makes chairs, some with a decorated crest rail. I asked him how he makes the crest rail - whether he steam bends the wood and carves the decoration himself. He replied that he buys the crest rails from a supplier who bends them and embosses the decoration into them.

All-in-all, I discovered that an Amish woodworker is exactly like any other woodworker today - they just don't use electricity.

One thing I didn't do was take pictures. I just didn't want to be the tourist who started snapping pictures of the "ole time people".

As we were driving away, I commented to my BIL that I should make a deal with the Amish to take the electric motors that they take off of their tools and sell them on eBay. He kind of "harrumped" and said, "The Amish aren't dumb. You can be sure they're already selling those motors one way or another."

Anyway, I just wanted to pass this story along. I could have spent quite a bit of time with him talking about tools and furniture but I had to limit things since he has a business to run. The funny thing is that I had the impression that he could have spent quite a bit of time talking about tools and furniture, also. He definitely was not pushing me out when I left.

Mike
 
Glad you enjoyed your visit.
Amish friend of mine is woodworking with all the mentions that you made. Humbles one real fast. :rolleyes:

Had the opportunity thru him to visit at least 25 Amish homes and spend time with them.
One could eat off the floor in all those homes very clean and orderly. NEVER found one home that looked like lot to be desired. Have nothing but respect for them.
 
We enjoy going to Amish country in Indiana and spent a week in PA a few years ago. Some of them even use electricity in their shops, but generate it using an on-site generator. We've got an amish dining room set, dresser, and my wife has a jewlery chest and all are nicely made--with many modern techniques like pocket screws.
 
You guys must have a different breed of Amish then what we got around these parts.
They have telephones in a building outside of the house, have farm tractors with the rear tires on steel rims ( know how funny it is to see a newer farm tractor on steel :rofl:) they have and own their own trucks and "put a driver" in it to drive them around.They all seem to be able to use skid-steer loaders without the steel rims for som reason:huh:
Around here they are held in mixed regard as for their workmanship, I've been called out to do a lot of repairs on work they have done.
The local Amish woodshop orders in all their stuff and sell it in their store...had a couple Amish work for me once....they could drink more beer than I could afford.
Fella I did some work for had a Amish crew come in to do some interior work in his house, he told me they would not flush the toilet when they got done...yep, he fired them.

Glad you guys have had good expieriences.
 
In Ohio, they seem to be doing a lot of specialization--one family does turnings, another makes chairs, another roll top desks. Those sell wholesale to other families that run shops.

We camped at a campground in Ohio that advertised "free firewood". I jokingly said it was probably cutoffs--until we got there and found out it really was. You could see the marks from the CNC routers on all the edges. Some of them have phones in a little, well phone booth, out by the road. Many of the businesses have email and fax numbers and the way I understand that works is that they go to a place "in town" where they print them for the business. Most of the rural shops don't have electric. When you go in there are skylights, including a lot of those Solar Tubes and gas lights, which I find mildly scary with all that wood and fresh finish. On the finish, most of them use pre-cat finishes, which are sprayed by someone who specializes in that--not sure if they are Amish.

I know the guy next door to me had his horse barn built by the Amish several years ago. I think he said they came from Indiana. They built all the stalls and everything. I've heard of others doing that. If I were going to build a barn today though, I hear there's a good guy up in the Charlotte area. ;)
 
To expand on what Stu posted - I was just sharing my experience in visiting an Amish woodworking shop and in how "ordinary" everything was, including the woodworker. I was not in any way saying that the work produced was any better than any other commercial shop - Amish or non-Amish.

People are people and some will do excellent work and some will do "not so excellent" work. Being Amish doesn't change that.

No matter who the woodworker is, you need to look at the work to decide if it's any good. Looking at the woodworker will not tell you.

Mike
 
You guys must have a different breed of Amish then what we got around these parts.
They have telephones in a building outside of the house, have farm tractors with the rear tires on steel rims ( know how funny it is to see a newer farm tractor on steel :rofl:) they have and own their own trucks and "put a driver" in it to drive them around.They all seem to be able to use skid-steer loaders without the steel rims for som reason:huh:
Around here they are held in mixed regard as for their workmanship, I've been called out to do a lot of repairs on work they have done.
The local Amish woodshop orders in all their stuff and sell it in their store...had a couple Amish work for me once....they could drink more beer than I could afford.
Fella I did some work for had a Amish crew come in to do some interior work in his house, he told me they would not flush the toilet when they got done...yep, he fired them.

Glad you guys have had good expieriences.

Steve, do you know if they charge sales tax, or pay state and federal income taxes? Or does the income go to their church?

What about workman's compensation insurance. Do they pay this mandated insurance policy?

The house I live in has cabinets "made" and installed by the Amish. These cabinets used plywood and some sort of factory applied catalyzed laquer or someother finish.

My biggest complaint is in the dinette area where they used big HONKIN wood screws to attach some trim!

Like someone else said, No they are not dumb. They are opportunists capitalizing, marketing and merchandising on their heritage to an unsuspecting public.

Let me be clear. Maybe not all, but in my experiences with them here in Illinois, they are taking more than they are contributing to our society as a whole. taxes and insurances are my two biggest issues.

please someone correct me if I have misinterpreted my experiences.

joe
 
To expand on what Stu posted - I was just sharing my experience in visiting an Amish woodworking shop and in how "ordinary" everything was, including the woodworker. I was not in any way saying that the work produced was any better than any other commercial shop - Amish or non-Amish.

People are people and some will do excellent work and some will do "not so excellent" work. Being Amish doesn't change that.

No matter who the woodworker is, you need to look at the work to decide if it's any good. Looking at the woodworker will not tell you.

Mike


I too have been to Amish workshops in Ohio and yes there is some good quality work going on but as for superior? I equate with the same relation as any other manufactureing company, the difference is that the product was produce by folks with good work ethics, Christian Ideals, and don't curse when they screw up, like I do. I have good work ethics and Christian Ideas but have difficulty with the cursing when I screw-up. (But I'm working on it :eek: )

Visiting Amish Communities is indeed very interesting and (weather or not you believe in their ideals) you have to give them credit for their resistance to societies demands. Around here we have Mennonites, which are similar yet more relaxed in their beliefs, they do use power tools but only for their Job... A friend had them build his barn and was amazed that they arrived in a truck and used power tools. They explained that it for their vocation and not a personal luxury.
 
I live in an area surrounded by the Amish and I have no idea where people get the idea they don't pay taxes. As far as I know the only tax they don't pay is SS and they don't get to draw it either. In fact there have been cases where they left the church and payed SS for 35 years and then their SS was denied because of some form they file when young.

As far as tools here in Lancaster county most of the commercial shops use a large motor to drive a compressor and then change the electric motors out to air motors. Then they can turn on and off and regulate speed with a simple valve.

As far as the quality of work its all over the place. But there are probably dozens of crews that drive into Philly daily to build houses.

One problem they had in the past was using hammer tackers to install roofs but most have converted to air nailers now. The shingles attached with the hammer staplers tended to blow off in a good wind.


I tend to buy all my angle iron and steel from the local Amish welding shops..

Mostly very good people and about all I see them getting without working is the freedom they enjoy. Them and several other local religions don't have to serve in the military even when we had the draft.

All in all they are very good at business and if its junk people want its junk they will sell, if its quality they want there are some super craftsmen willing to do fine work. Both in wood and metal, there is even one over near Gap, Pa that will cast iron parts for you if you send him a pattern.

Garry
 
Steve, do you know if they charge sales tax, or pay state and federal income taxes? Or does the income go to their church?

What about workman's compensation insurance. Do they pay this mandated insurance policy?



Let me be clear. Maybe not all, but in my experiences with them here in Illinois, they are taking more than they are contributing to our society as a whole. taxes and insurances are my two biggest issues.

I can't answer all of your questions Joe, but here is what I do know. None of them are electricians or plumbers, that would require them to get some hours in as apprentices, journeyman and then Master of their trade. They can however be carpenters, drywallers,painters, barn builders cause they don't have to put in any steady time into the recorded hours and classtime for Apprentice, Journeyman and Master and therefore they can still tend to their farms

...here is how it is done in these parts....

Ole Caleb has a residential builders liscense that he allows Zeke and Freeman to use, along with any others of the Amish community...course he gets a bit of $$$ back in his pocket cause he is the "builder" I am not sure about workmens comp, or liability if they hire family they are exempt in paying workmens comp, but shouldn't be for liability( I know I am required by law to carry it) I have heard other builders complain that the Amish do not carry anything but I can't confirm it so it is just a guess, but I will ask my insurance agent next time if he has any that are insured, cause now I am curious. I also had to document that I had a minimum of 3 years in working for another builder before I was allowed to even take my licensed builder test.

Then there is the issue about warranty on work. I have seen firsthand that "these ones we have" do not stand behind anything for any period of time....they find work because they are cheap and people like cheap...until things are wrong.

The thought held in this community is like yours that they do little to help out the community and take more than they give back...they also never refer a "Englishman" for work but will always refer one of their own.

I again will say that I hope it is just the ones we have in this community and not all of them as a whole.
 
Sounds like a neat visit Mike. It's always a treat to visit a pro shop. The Amish shops around here I've been to were either pneumatic or hydraulic. That allows easy movement or additions of machinery so I'm told. The flexible shafts sound interesting. That would be something I'd like to see!

Steve, the Amish you describe sound like older order Mennonite that live around here. (There are various Mennonite orders in our area ranging from horse and buggies, steel wheeled equipment, "black bumper" (no chrome on vehicles), to bonnets and hats only, and finally typical, pedestrian - no outward difference.) Though each Amish Church decides what is appropriate.

Joe, The Amish here pay all taxes but Social Security and FICA - which they don't draw upon anyway. As far as insurance, they are "self insured". As a community they take care of their own. In fact the hospitals are actively courting Amish customers because they pay cash immediately. Someone recently asked if there were any good Amish stores around. I was sorry to say most I know shop at Walmart and other stores just like I do. Many of the stores even have sheds for the horses - including the Walmarts.

Wes
 
I have visited an Amish store in the Selinsgrove area (actually not in Selinsgrove but down the trail towards Harrisburg - but I don't know all the names of the towns). The store had gas lights in the ceiling and lots of regular stuff - things you'd see in any other store. But it also had some interesting non-electric stuff. One thing I especially remember was a clothes iron that was gas heated. It was like one of those old Coleman gas stoves - it used white gas and had a pump just like a Coleman. I assume you lit it and adjusted the heat with a knob.

There were other things like that in the store but I don't remember them now.

Regarding the Amish being drafted back when there was a draft, the Amish were "drafted" but they served two years as civilians and worked in places like hospitals doing the dirty work - like cleaning up after incontinent patients. And just like everyone else, not all Amish boys got drafted.

Regarding the use of electricity by the Amish - Mr. Brubaker mentioned that he had some things made by local machinists. Later, I asked my BIL if the Amish were machinists because it often requires welding parts together and gas welding is not a good solution for some work because it puts too much heat into the parts and causes warping. My BIL said that the Amish used electric welding - they just power their welding equipment from a diesel generator and don't connect to the power grid.

My analysis is that the Amish "bend" their restrictions (with the approval of the church elders) when it's necessary to make a living. So using electricity to weld things - like stick welding, or MIG or TIG - is okay because there's no other way to do the work. But electricity in the home would bring the "English" world into their home via TV and the Internet - and that would threaten their way of life by seducing their children.

Interesting religion/people but they're just people like the rest of us - they just chose a different way to go through life.

Mike
 
My dealings with the Amish in my area are less than great. I don't like the double standard. They won't buy any power tools or a vehicle, but they will ride in your to a jobsite if you pick them up. And they will be glad to use any power tool as long as you supply it. And don't get me started about driving their buggies on the highway and not buying license plates.
Around here they are crafty and really on the downslide. A friend of mine went to the local store to buy a cedar picnic table. Bent over and looked underneath, low and behold a Made in China sticker that somebody forgot to remove. And the tables were all under the old handcrafted Amish furniture sign.
I don't have anything particularly against them, and they should have the freedom to worship as they choose. But they should have to pay just like everyone else and they don't.
 
Steve, the Amish you describe sound like older order Mennonite that live around here. (There are various Mennonite orders in our area ranging from horse and buggies, steel wheeled equipment, "black bumper" (no chrome on vehicles), to bonnets and hats only, and finally typical, pedestrian - no outward difference.) Though each Amish Church decides what is appropriate.

Wes, these are Amish, they advertise their bi annual auction sale as a "Amish auction sale" Mr. Laustrup and Mr. Merlau can attest to that they went with me to the last one. They advertise anything they do as "Amish built" I beleive they must have more lax set of rules than maybe others do, maybe something they as a church do by locale :dunno:
 
This is an interesting thread - if getting maybe a little off topic!

An Englishman's only experience of the Amish is that Harrison Ford movie -Witness?

I imagined that they were confined to a couple of villages in Pennsylvania - reading the posts it appears there are far more of them than I thought!

The attitude of some of you guys toward the Amish sounds just like a lot of people's attitude over here towards 'Gypsies'. I guess we've all got to have someone to get irate about!

The insurance thing would worry me, but I would suggest that only he who is without sin cast the first stone on taxes. I don't suppose that there is a self-employed tradesman in the world who doesn't enjoy the benefit of the occasional 'cash job'!

Apart from me, of course.
 
Hi Duncan,

I agree, it is an interesting thread. I live in the southeast of the USA and their are many Menonite communities in our area. They tend to be of the car driving (always black, some by way of cheap spray paint), hat and bonnett types that will use power tools and remain mostly in a closed society that naturally contributes to speculation by "outsiders." As with any group that feels they must rely upon only themselves, they tend to push only work done by themselves or others of the clan. The local church elder is the "decider" of which conveinence in modern life is acceptable. Most farm and do construction work and many run small bandmills.

I've never know them to be anything but good neighbors. There is a moderately sized community of Menonites near my vacation property. They tend to like rural communities where they will be tollerated and for the most part, where they can live their lives without scrutiny.
 
An Englishman's only experience of the Amish is that Harrison Ford movie -Witness? :D:D
It's funny to hear the locals talk about the errors in the movie. (I've only lived here 22 years - not long enough to be considered local!:rolleyes:)

Steve, you are correct about the Church deciding for each congregation. There was an issue around here with roller blades years ago. Some congregations could use them, others couldn't. And with the pressures to make each acre profitable, I'm not too surprised. The orders here use separate carts with a gas engine on it to power harvesters etc. all still pulled by mules or horse teams.

I'm not surprised to hear the different experiences with the Amish - just like any community - some good, some bad. My neighbors extended family is Amish. Her parents left the order at some point, though I've never asked why because I figure it is personal. She and her siblings have all done very well as "English". Each runs their own business - her brother's is successful enough to have a visit from the President a few years ago.:eek: I guess I've been lucky to have dealings with the good guys for the most part.:thumb:

More on topic - there was a machinery dealer I went to years ago that sold mainly to Amish and old order Mennonite. He would make the conversion from electric as needed. Each machine was marked "as is" (electrified), pneumatic, or hydraulic. The last two with a discount noted for the motor.:D

Wes

PS Chris, I found the "black bumper" Mennonites used to be easy to spot - for obvious reasons. But now that there is so little chrome on cars, it's not as obvious. In fact my car would qualify if I painted the aluminum wheels!
 
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As to where the Amish are located I have lived near them in both Missouri and Pa. There is a large group of them in Jamesport, Missouri.

Usually if they are truly Amish then they have Church in houses while the other plain folks usually have "Church" buildings.


On of the more interesting places to visit in Lancaster county that isn't on the visitor listings is a large Amish owned grocery outlet down near Quarryville, Pa.

Its called B&B and is the size of a normal supermarket. It has huge light tubes for natural and gas lights for winter hours . The local built ceiling fans that run on compressed air and use a piston to drive a off center cam like device to turn the blades. They have a huge walk in freezer. For people interested in things mechanical its an interesting place.

It's a couple of miles north of Quarryville on 222 and back to the east a quarter mile or so.

Garry
 
Amish Hardware Store

Kidron Ohio has a high population of Amish people. In Kidron is Lehman's Hardware that carries many of the appliances, and related items used by the Amish. For some reason, Lehmans has a website. It is interesting to browse the site and find products and you thought went out of production 70 or more years ago.
 
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