Is it just me???

M Toupin

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Is it just me or has there been a plethora of threads in the various WW forums lately with unrealistic expectations from tools? I'm talking about the "my (you name it) is out .0001 of an inch" or "I bought a (you name it) and it's out of true .0001 of an inch". I'm not sure how feeler gages and dial indicators got into the WW field, but a lot of folks need to step back and have a serious reality check:eek:

Folks, we're talking one TEN THOUSANDS of an inch! First off, I sincerely doubt most, if not all of the folks that are making these claims have the proper tools to measure .0001. Tools that can accurately measure to that tolerance are VERY expensive and take practice to use. Next, I sinsearly doubt most of these folks know the proper methods involved in measuring these tolerances. for goodness sake, at .0001 temperature can alter the size due to thermal expansion/contraction. Not to mention most, if not all of these folks have NO idea about machining tolerances which generally run in the +.003 -.003 range. Yes, there are exceptions, but that's a good middle of the road tolerance range for the average machine job.

Let's put this into prospective, a average piece of printer paper is .003 to .004. I just read a post on another forum from a guy complaining the fence on his jointer was out .00015". Yes, we're talking 15 TEN THOUSANDS of an INCH! We're working wood, folks, it moves, swells and shrinks more than that in a day! If we have to set up WW machines to the sub .0001 levels, then how did the masters ever manage to make anything, much less the exquisite master pieces they did without the benefit of a dial indicator??? Or maybe we've lost sight of the craftsmanship aspect and we're expecting our machines to do it for us?

Sorry this turned into a rant, but it just blows my little bitty mind.

Mike
 
Actually it isn't that easy to work metal to tenths. I have a set of calibrated gage blocks available this week and my offshore digital calipers were off by a couple of thou at .062 and .1 and came back to about .001 low from .250 up to two inches. My offshore dial calipers were within .001 from 0-2 inches. I didn't bother to check my micrometers as I didn't want to know if they were off as I always consider them the final say so..


by the way the digitals read down to =/- .ooo5 its just that they didn't read quite correct. But quite acceptable for what I paid and expected.

Garry
 
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Mike, I suspect some of the posts you're seeing are the result of misplaced decimal points. I'll bet the 0.00015 was really 0.015. Still, that's MUCH finer tolerances than necessary, IMHO.

Just another reason I like working on the lathe. All my turned pieces are accurate to within 0.00001. :p I don't know the dimensions of the finished piece, and have no exact dimensions to try to match, but if you measure them, they are right on the money. :rofl:
 
I couldn't agree more. This is wood. Get too close while your working it and the moisture from your exhales breath can cause a .0001 increase in size. Set it down on a warm sunny bit of workbench and it can move that much in minutes. There is a section of the community of woodworkers who are really tool collectors and tuners. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a tool collector and tuner but it is a bit annoying when the impression is given that everybody needs to finesse tools to that degree. I am sure that this acts as a discouragement to ordinary woodworkers starting out in real world woodworking.

The fence on my TS is about a milimetre out against the scale but the scale is a scabby printed thing anyway. Any critical cut gets tested and measured using a cheap pair of digital calipers. I use the digital calipers because I can't afford to waste time and they give me a good enough result quicker and easier than anything else. 99.9% of the time I look at the whole millimetres and make sure that the first decimal place is on the right side of the rounding point (39.6mm=40mm - 40.3mm=40mm). For the woodworking that I do that is good enough - and good enough is not a pergorative term by any means.
 
Agreed! People working with those tolerances should be working in metal, not wood.

Actually some of us do both. Metal all week and wood on the weekends. I work to tight tolerances just because I can and because it is a matter of habit as a machinist. As Vaughn said many of those decimals are misplaced in those posts though.

Myself .001 is plenty far enough. Some machines are as far as .003 off (Radial Arm Saw) and some had better be closer than that, the jointer and planer being one of them. Those are multi pass machines in normal operation so with every pass you are multiplying the off-tolerances again and again.

As a machinist I feel compelled to tell you that the eye can start seeing discrepancies in the .012 to .015 range without a straight edge or anything. If your jointer is .005 off, that means only 3 passes and you will begin to see the difference with out any type of aids. For feel you can start to feel discrepancies in the .0008-.001 range. Just something to keep in mind.

When I was a machinist at Lie Nielsen we did machine hand planes to .0001 in places and we often had special CNC programs that kept the machine running when were at lunch. That was because with the spindle stopped, it would cool off enough to throw things off. .0001 is very fine
 
I sure dont bother trying to measure stuff that fine but I'm pretty sure you can feel it. That's the last little uneven ridge that you knock down with a handplane or ROS. Why bother measuring it if you're just going to kill it?
 
I did see a fairly long thread . . .

on one site arguing over the geometry and trig for figuring if the TS blade was, in fact, perp to the table. My biggest maxim is " aim for perfect and get half-_____" but I figure throwing my Dad's machinist's square on the thing gets me close enough.
 
I'm a architect and I'm lucky if they can set a foundation out on site within +-2". As I'm getting older I'm finding my eyes can't focus on anything under 1/16 on a scale which is ok as I prefer metric, +-.5 mm is ok with me :)
 
On machine setups I shoot for as good as I can get. Steel City and Delta both quote .01" deviation over a tool table surface as their tolerance. I think that's a little loose but, I haven't found any machines that were that bad either.

I think it is good to try and have your machines and your reference points as accurate as possible. I do not, however, try to transfer those kinds of tolerances over to my material; what would be the point? If in question; cut a board. If the cut is within your tolerances, so is the machine. . . continue working happily.
 
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there are those who I figure want to impress with their "Stickler for detail" attitude when we who have been in the industry know that those numbers are a crock when considering Wood and the fluxuation it regularly conveys when the weather changes in a day or so. Some of the finest works buy Craftsmen of yore have been done with hoping to just "Fit" , let alone be within a fraction (not to mention decimal places) I've been doing this for over 40 years and if I get within a sharp knife point I am satisfied.

It is Woodworking not metalurgy... Time to get real. :eek:
 
As Vaughn said many of those decimals are misplaced in those posts though.

I agree, an that's exactly my point... folks who don't even know how to properly annotate the measurement or even use the measuring device trying to use it to set up a machine.

As a machinist I feel compelled to tell you that the eye can start seeing discrepancies in the .012 to .015 range without a straight edge or anything. If your jointer is .005 off, that means only 3 passes and you will begin to see the difference with out any type of aids. For feel you can start to feel discrepancies in the .0008-.001 range. Just something to keep in mind.

Tavis, I'm well aware, I'm a school trained machinist myself. The point is that the 012 to .015 range you speak of is only under limited circumstances in relation to woodworking. I dare say you would never be able to tell the .012-.015 deviation on a the width of a door stile, drawer, you name it. Now you might notice it in relation to the flush fit of a lap joint, but the point is, the first swipe of sandpaper will render it a moot point...

When I was a machinist at Lie Nielsen we did machine hand planes to .0001 in places and we often had special CNC programs that kept the machine running when were at lunch. That was because with the spindle stopped, it would cool off enough to throw things off. .0001 is very fine

If Lie Nielsen is actually using .0001 tolerances then that explains why they are so outrageously priced...:eek: Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with tight tolerances, the problem is when it gets taken to the absurd and misinformed folks start to believe it. I sure wish you would explain to me how .0001 tolerances on a hand plane would make it work any better than a .001 tolerance. Better yet, maybe Lie Nielsen would send me a box of those rejects that failed the QC check and are out say .001 or .002":D

Mike
 
Oh, no... you just turned those poor measuring nuts world upside down Gary. Now they'll all have to go out and get a set of gauge blocks to check out their $5.00 dial indicators. Oh, it's going to be horrid, they'll now have to spend countless sleepless nights remeasuring EVERYTHING in their shops.:D:D:D

Mike

Actually it isn't that easy to work metal to tenths. I have a set of calibrated gage blocks available this week and my offshore digital calipers were off by a couple of thou at .062 and .1 and came back to about .001 low from .250 up to two inches. My offshore dial calipers were within .001 from 0-2 inches. I didn't bother to check my micrometers as I didn't want to know if they were off as I always consider them the final say so..


by the way the digitals read down to =/- .ooo5 its just that they didn't read quite correct. But quite acceptable for what I paid and expected.

Garry
 
If Lie Nielsen is actually using .0001 tolerances then that explains why they are so outrageously priced...:eek: Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with tight tolerances, the problem is when it gets taken to the absurd and misinformed folks start to believe it. I sure wish you would explain to me how .0001 tolerances on a hand plane would make it work any better than a .001 tolerance. Better yet, maybe Lie Nielsen would send me a box of those rejects that failed the QC check and are out say .001 or .002":D

Mike

No problem Mike. If you re-read my post you will see that it says "some parts of handplanes"...what I meant by that was, there are certain places that need to be fit up that tight for assembly reasons. One such place is the adjustable mouth on a number 9 block plane I believe. That adjustable mouth has to fit very tightly. It fits into a very tight pocket that if sloppy, will give the adjustable mouth a sloppy fit, and thus a sloppy cut when making a fine .004 on average) cut or below. To get that mouth to fit just so, the machinist has to hand lap that mouth using sand paper and a granite block. The bad machinists get it close enough and sand the bejeepers out of the adjustable mouth to get it to fit perfectly. The better machinists adjust the CNC machines to make cuts, creeping up at .0001 at a time to get the adjustable mouth so that it takes one or two swipes on sandpaper and a granite block to fit without overly working themselves.

Another spot that was critical is on the nicker on the #140 Skew Plane. Again there is very little room for error there and sanding down the knicker is not much of an option. Those .0001 adjustments come in handy,

The frog of a plane is another area. You can be with .002 from left to right on a frog and be just fine. Skewing the plane blade left to right will compensate for that much slop, but honestly, that is a last resort. Adjusting the mill to take off .0o01 at a time and you get precision.

I no longer work for Lie Nielsen, for various personal reasons, but I will give them this bone. There is a HUGE difference between hastily milled planes and ones milled to tight tolerances. Unfortunately that results in higher costs.

Oh one more thing, there is no QC guy or girl at that facility. Every machinist is responsible for the quality of their work. Granted there are a lot of mistakes, but those are send back to the foundry, recast and the process starts again.
 
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Just a disclaimer here...my above post was not my way of being mouthy. I honest to God was trying to explain how and why .0001 tolerances are used and can be used to make high quality planes.
 
To re-quote: "Originally Posted by Travis Johnson
As a machinist I feel compelled to tell you that the eye can start seeing discrepancies in the .012 to .015 range without a straight edge or anything."

I have to agree, the eye can often see small discrepancies that might slip by using measuring devices.
On a chair I built recently, after finishing I noticed that a rear spreader looked wrong. On examination, I determined that one side was wider than the other. I probably wiggled it slightly running through the table saw. But, when I put a tape measure on the piece, I cannot discern any measurable difference. It is less than the thickness of the black line on the tape. The piece is doweled on and I'm not about to remove and repair. I'll just fall back on the time tested axiom, "A man running for his life would never notice it."
 
There is a HUGE difference between hastily milled planes and ones milled to tight tolerances.

No argument from me Travis, quality tools are a joy to work with. A crappy tool is aggravating to adjust and not a lot of fun to use. I can appreciate the tight tolerances on a LN, or anything else for that matter, as I know what it takes to work to those specs but I sincerely believe it's a bit of overkill for marketings sake. I understand and agree with the need for tight tolerances on frogs etc, but .0001"? Come on, we're talking a hand plane here. The difference in blade skew from a .0001" to a .001" in a 2" wide blade is minuscule. In order to effectively tell the difference between a cut with a blade skewed to those differences one would have to hold and guide a hand plane perfectly flat, level and with even pressure over the entire sole. Even a slight difference in pressure on any part of the plane would change the angle of attack enough to alter the cut. For goodness sake, one can deform the wood being planed more than .0001 with even moderate pressure. Anyone who thinks they can perfectly hold and guide a hand plane perfectly with every stroke needs a reality check too:eek:

We're kind of drifting from my original post, but suffice it to say, I fully agree with you that there is a time and a place for tight tolerances. Press fits for bearings are a good example. My original point was many folks have lost all prospective (or never had it to Begin with) on what are acceptable tolerances and exactly how fine .0001" is.

Mike
 
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