shop question for the fire fighters!

what is if any standards for the placement and quantity or size of fire extinguishers? we all know wood burns and motors to.. but i dont recall much said about the prevention of a castophy by having or using fire extinguishers at hand for those emergency times.. so if any of you folk have some firemen or firewoman expeiernce and could help the rest of us out thanks.

Fire Extinguishers

Larry,

I work as a Fire Marshal in the Nations Capitol so I guess I qualify to speak on this subject. The average hobby woodworker has about 400 to 600 sq.ft. of shop space, that being said with the most likely culprit to start a fire would be electrical in nature (woodworking machinery) or Class C (electrical fires) the most likely found fuel sources would be wood in different forms of mass i.e. dimesional, shavings and saw dust or Class A (wood,paper) and finally stains, paints and solvents or Class B (flammable liquids). So obviously the choice would be a Dry Chemical Extinguisher (ABC) type, this will extinguish all three classes of those fires mentioned and the size should at least be a 10 lbs ABC extinguisher this has the capability to extinguish a fire that is 100 sq.ft. in size (10 X 10). If you have a larger space you might add another or up size to a twenty pounder. Note: the little 2 to 5 pounders that you see in most kitchens are okay for small range top fires but I elieve you should have at least 1 10 lbs. ABC Dry Chem. Extinguisher in your shop and Remeber P.A.S.S. Pull Pin, Aim Nozzel at base of fire, Squeeze handle, Sweep back and forth at base of fire and always, I Repeat always even if you think the fire is out or not dial 911, you never know if the fire could grow larger or get behind a wall and not really be out. Also make sure you have them located where you can get at them, dont hide them behind yuor wood stash or some 500 lbs + wood working machine. Oh, by the way I know alot of people say cleanliness is a sign of a sick mind, but I would rather have a sick mind than be sick to my stomach after watching my favorite hobby and equipment or buisness burn to the ground (god forbid your shop is attached to your house) a little sweeping goes a long way.

Hope that helps, and by the way I have 3 10lbs. in my shop. (of course I get mine for free).

P.S. These things cost from 50.00 to 100.00 so shop around and make sure it is U/L Listed.


Scott

thanks scott

now for the next question?? if the shop is 32 x 36 how many would you suggest? i have 2 abc dry type now and they are UL listed

I keep an 8lb ABC by each exit door. I figure this puts me near the door if I decide to 'flight' instead of 'fight' the fire. These sound a bit small according to Scott's post which I definitely take to heart. There is a small backup unit on the floor right below each 8 pounder.

The top handle is about 2 feet off the floor. This is easily reachable from a standing or lying position. The phone is near the door to the outside, next to the extinguisher and is also located about 2 feet off the floor. The low height was recommended in case you have "fallen and can't get up" and need to call for help.

Planning is important to everyone but, as I live and work alone, I take it very seriously. If I can't reach a phone, I can yell till I'm hoarse and it will do me no good. Please plan accordingly. A couple hundred bucks is nothing compared to not being prepared.

Larry,

That should be fine, the thing to remember is that fire extinguishers are known as first aid firefighting appliances, you will more than likely if ever only use one of the two, if the first one hasnt knocked down the fire then the fire has probably grown to level where the second one will not help or be able to be reached. these things are made to catch a fire in its incipient phase with an area not much larger than a good size trash can on fire. Thats why you should always call the fire department, sometimes I think that people get a false sense of security about having a couple of fire extingushers around. Remember even sprinklered buildings burn down.

But to answer your question I think the two you have should be fine, prevention is the best thing..place flammables away from heat sources, keep all electrcal equipment and cords in good shape, maintain any heating appliances you may have and keep them at least 3 ft away from combustibles and once again sweeping and blowing the place out once in awhile to get accumulated dust out of the shop goes along way. The main rule in fire prevention is keep the fuel sources away from the ignition sources, do that and other than your shop being struck by lightning you should never have a fire.


Scott

Thanks for the input! I read Larry's post and thought it was a great question. One I have meant to ask. I have a garden hose by the exit door of my shop. I know better than hit an electrical fire with it too.

Thanks for the input. Will start shopping around.

Another thing as recommended by my fire extinguisher supplier don't purchase a plastic valved fire extinguisher & expect it to work when you need it. Plastic has a way of deteriorating & when it does it shrinks & will let the pressure drop.
Also if in your shop you can put the fire out with CO2 as a first line of defense do so but do have an ABC fire extinguisher on hand ready to use too. Reason an ABC extinguisher not only gets in to everything but is corrosive when it gets into your motors & tool mechanics.

Just to add to Scott C.'s info, Larry also asked about placement.

For extinguishers under 40 lbs. they can be placed up to 60" off of the floor, measuring from the finished floor to the top of the extinguisher or cabinet. For extinguishers 40 lb. and over, the max height is 42". The minimum distance from the floor is 4" from the finished floor. This ensures that the extinguisher isn't just set on the floor.

They also "shall be located along normal paths of travel, including exits from areas."

Non-wheeled portable fire extinguishers "shall be installed using any of the following means:

1) Securely on a hanger intended for the extinguisher
2) In the bracket supplied by the extinguisher manufacturer
3)In a listed bracket approved for such purpose
4)In cabinets or wall recesses
(end quote)

Any extinguishers need to be adequately strapped and protected depending on the conditions of its location and in areas where it may be damaged or dislodged.


This info is from the 2007 NFPA Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers and from my experience in the Fire Department and my fire officer training. Of course though, I defer any and all of this info to Fire Marshall Custer (since he would have outranked me. )

this is what i was after

to get the family involved thanks scott for your input and the others too,, the two ihave are plastic valves bart so i quess i will be lookun to change them out at some point in time. but till then i quess plastic is better than nun. will co2 work on most everything?

I bought some fire extinguishers at a yard sale from a church. To old for public building use. It was told to me by a fireman to turn them upside down from time to time and hit the bottom of the extinguisher with a rubber hammer. Keeps the powder from becoming a hard mass on the bottom.

Scott Custer said:

Larry,

I work as a Fire Marshal in the Nations Capitol so I guess I qualify to speak on this subject.

Scott

Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess you'll do until we can find an expert.

Thanks for the great info, Scott.

Larry,

CO2 is really only meant for electrical fires its classified as a B,C type extingusher meaning that it could be used on flammables, however my experience in using these on flammable liquid fires is that they suck, reason being CO2 is a gas and gases disperse quickly..you literally have to be right on top of the fire for them to work, also CO2 is expensive to replace or even find (not many places use these anymore, cost to much to maintain and once again they suck unless the CO2 is in a stationary prepiped system i.e. computer rooms) where as an ABC type extinguisher can be bought at any store.

By the way Bart is correct that ABC chemical can be corrosive however if you sprayed it on to a machine that was on fire, than I think the damage from the fire would be a little worse than what the extingusher would do, Now I know the stuff goes everywhere but it can be blown off easy enough with an air hose.

one more thing to remember regarding electrical fires, if the machine is not plugged in or if the switch is thrown in the panel, than the equipment is not ENERGIZED (Class C is for ENERGIZED electrical equipment) and therefore can be put out with anything even water, however unless you know for sure always use an ABC.

Scott

I've got two in the Dungeon, they are 4.93 Kg which would be 10 pounders, I guess, I buy them at Joyful Honda, they are not expensive at all, and are rated for around $50 each. The ones we have in the Liquor shop are inspected every year, they were made in 1994 (stamped right on the side) so they are 13 years old, and still fine. I wonder how long we can keep them before they have to be replaced?

I have two ways out of the Dungeon, I keep one extinguisher near each way out, same as Glenn, if I cannot fight it, I will go into flight mode

Great info Scott, thanks for jumping in on such an important subject!

Explosion Detectors?

A few things to add...

Now I can understand mounting a fire extinguisher closer to the floor level on account of smoke and whatnot, but to be honest with you, I mounted mine quite high in my new boiler room. The reason was simple, I was afraid little hands(Alyson) would get into it. Just something to keep in mind if you have wee-ones or grand kids around.

But now I have a question for the experts...what about those explosion gas detectors? My house is powered by several propane units. My wife insisted that where the manifold comes together (I have the new 2 pound manifold gas system) which is in our new boiler room, that we purchase and mount a explosion detector. This one is by Nighthawk and detects several gas fumes like propane, diesel and gas. It also detects carbon monoxide. Personally I figure by the time it alerts us, something will ignite the explosive gas anyway (switch, boiler, telephone, etc) so it was a waste of money. Still 60 dollars was worth making the wife feel safer.

What do you guys think. Do the work at all,or are they a gimmick?

We have them in our house, Tokyo Gas, or local natural gas utility company also insists on it, they do CO2, and natural gas, etc. They work, they work really well. When we first moved into this place, there was a minor problem with the gas oven, sometimes it would light for a few seconds, then the flame would go out, and gas unburnt gas would still come out for only a second or two, then it would shut down, and we got an error message. The first time this happened the detector went off, scared the heck out of us

We could NOT smell any gas, and usually you can smell even a small leak. The gas company guys came, it turned out to be a problem with the sensor on the gas oven, they fixed it and everything was OK.

The second time, we had a BBQ party at the house, and we were using a portable gas hotplate thing, in the living room for something (I forget what). It was a hot day, we had 50+ people in the house and we had all doors and windows open, it was also a bit windy (6 floor up you know). Anyway, we figure the hotplate thing got blown out by the wind, and the detector went off again, so in a house full of people, all the windows open and no one smelled gas, but the detector went off.

I will continue to have the detectors in my house.

That is reassuring. Just wondered how good it was. Glad the wife insistedI get it. (Just don't tell her I said that )

Hey Scott, Let me know if ya are coming my way, Indianapolis, for FDIC this year. I'll buy the first round.

Scott,

I have a question regarding disposal of extinguishers. We had an unfortunate incident last summer around our newly installed paver patio and I had to use one of our exiguishers to control the flame. I've never had an empty one around before so I do not know how to dispose of one properly. Is there anything specific I'm supposed to do? Bring it to the local fire department? Throw it in the trash? Dispose of it in a hazardous material pick-up?

Thanks a bunch!

Scott,

You can throw away the extinguishers in the regular trash if they are not under pressure anymore..and if they are spray the rest of the agent out and then throw it away.

The only exception is if you own a 20lbs or better as an extinguisher shop would give you money for that as they can hydrostatic test it and refill for use, otherwise the smaller ones can be replaced cheaper than having an old one serviced.

By the way Doug I went to IChiefs this last August in Atlanta so I dont know if the chief will be sending me to FDIC, but if he does I will let you know and thanks for the offer.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll put 'er in the trash tonight.

~Scott