toe kicks...attached or separate

Chris Mire

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Southern Louisiana
well, i was checking out doug's montana ent center and in the thread was a mention of using a separate toe kick. something i have thought of doing, but never got the nerve to try on one of my job's.

i now use "attached" kicks, cut out of the plywood side that runs the full length of the side of the cabinet.

about 95% of the time i am doing "furniture style" cabinets where the stiles on the ends run to the floor and the kick has a decorative cutout or something.

so my question is, which do you use when building cabinets, any kind of cabinets, high dollar kitchens or just shop cabs.

why do you use that style?

have you tried both and settled on one?

i'll give my answer in the next post

chris
 
ok, so as i said i do attached kicks. mainly cause it's all i have ever known.

does the idea of being able to level a kick section first and not a heavy cabinet sound good to me, heck yes it does. but there are complications for me.

90% of my cabinets have raised panel ends, i like to run my panels all the way to the floor. and most times the outer stiles run all the way down as well. so how would you handle this with a seperate kick?

i have never tried it so i can't say i don't like to do it. i have just never gotten past that initial fear of getting halfway through the job and realizing i made more work for myself. which usually happens anyway :doh: but i try to avoid it if i can.

thanks
chris
 
For kitchen cabinets I've done I've done the same as you and done the cut-out and added a strip in. On the last house we built for my parents we did did some additional drawers in the kickboard space instead as well as reversing the drawers with the cabinet drawers. My mom found it easier to get to the back of the cabinets with the doors being on top. Furniture pieces are usually decorative for me, what ever makes the piece look balanced, which make require a decorative cut-out.
 
Guess I should have read Doug's thread first, but sounds like a good idea. Have seen it done on some of the DIY shows. Makes sense to be able to level it , especially if the floor in the back is off by a bit and you have a heavy top to install. Most cabinets I've done just get shimmed on the front and I'll just raise the back as needed and screw it into the studs through the rear top support. :dunno:
 
Chris have you ever seen the European styled kitchen cabinets from Ikea?

They have adjustable legs with an add on "plinth" (aka toe kick) as they call it...

I've done a few cabs in the past and always used traditional methods, shim the bases and install the kicks last but the adjustable leg sets look kind of interesting :dunno:
 
Toe kicks are kind of interesting to me in that I really don't like them. The space seems to get all messy and its hard to clean. Even in the best of homes the toe kick area is a place that is within sight, yet so hard to clean that it always looks drabby, dirty and messy. So I don't use them in my cabinets.

What I do instead is cantilever the counter top out more. This allows two things. First it allows room for the feet along the entire height of the cabinet instead of just a small dingy area at the bottom. And second it allows food and crumbs to be wiped up into the hand and whatnot easily because of the extra room.

This poses two additional problem however. The first is drawer space when using top drawers (drawers mounted near the work surface). Because the cantilevered counter top sticks out more, this leaves you less room to put your hand into the drawer. You certainly will need full extension slides. The other thing it does it change the cabinet dimensions. You will either have to make non standard with counter tops, or make your cabinets not as deep as standard cabinets.

When I made my kitchen counter tops (a self-designed timber-frame style for my country style home), I used the cantilevered counter top. I did lose some room getting into my drawers but in 4 years or so it has never been a real issue. The truth is I love not having a small toe kick area space that gets all dirty and nasty. Also, wiping down the counter top surface is easy with so much room out in front in which to place a hand and catch the crumbs and whatnot.

PS I am not a big fan of upper cabinets either, but that is a separate thread :)

Cabinets4-281x204.jpg
 
darren, where does she store her silverware, surely not on the bottom drawer. i go into my silverware drawer 5 times a day. that's alot of bending over.



jim, i have seen those and they look cool. but once again i guess i am just stubborn. but i tell ya, when i'm trying to level a set of cabinets in a corner that are 8' long in each direction. i am wishing i wasn't so stubborn.

travis, i have seen someone recently do what you did but without the counter extension. i guess after awhile i could get used to it like that. it's just one of those things that looks odd to me, not bad mind you, just different, cause i ain't used to it. but i am sure people could say my work looks odd too. i would only do one like that if the customer asked me to.
 
Hi Chris

I do the separate toe kick because it just seems easier too me. I use pocket screws to fasten them together with shop scrap that's just laying around. It's definitely easier to level them first, then set you boxes on top. I build cabinets as boxes and then use an applied raised panel end too. I have a toe kick on the end of the cabinet as well.

I'm just getting started on a new job and I will see if I can take some pics of the install. This client wants a euro look and the contractor wants face frames so it will be interesting to design. I think there is only one open end so I will try and show how I handle it.

Doug
 
doug, i figured that was how you were handling it.

i wonder, as i do sometimes, if i were to build a cabinet just like normal, but leave the toe kick off, so there is nothing below, keep the raised panel going to the floor, and the stile also, build a separate toe kick, level it, then set the box on top. the panel and stile may not touch the floor if i had to raise the toekick to level it, but then if it was all one unit then it wouldn't touch that way either. this way all shims would be hidden and i wouldn't have to snap them off after leveling. :dunno:

i guess it's something to think about. but then i could try those leveling legs too and attach a toe kick after like jim said.

too many options really. maybe if things slow down i can try something new. maybe i'll try it on some shop cabs, if i ever get to move in

chris
 
Chris if you ever do any frameless cabinets a separate toe kick works great. Because you build boxes and flush out all the edges ......much easier.

I was wondering how you worked the finished end panel if you had to shim the cabinets, then you would have a gap. This is something I'm going to figure out on this next job because at the end panel there is wainscoting that has to wrap around the cabinet on a half wall.

You nailed it when you said," I wonder" Custom cabinets have a huge thought and planning process. It's really hard to just build boxes and go. There are way too many variables to contend with. Each kitchen has different situations that have to be handled separately. The same goes with toe kicks:)

Doug
 
I did separate for the only cabinets I've built, but it worked great for me and I'll probably do it that way for any future cabinets. As you mentioned, leveling was a cinch. I just leveled the base using shims, screwed it down and just had to set the boxes on top. It also made building the boxes easier because they were just, well, boxes. The top and the floor went at the ends of the sides and there was no measuring required at assembly time beyond checking squareness.
 
Hi Chris :wave:,
The toe kick thing is nice to consider. I believe it matters in quality work. Most people don't think of the reason for a toe kick nor do they consider the options. It is nice to see you bring this up.:D

Toe kicks have purpose, but that purpose needs be weighed out with the regularity for that need versus a more developed, furniture look.

Kitchen spaces have regular need for the toe kick as we address recessed upper cabinets and the counter top for work space. I add 45°fillers (however small) to my inside corners to lend ease in cleaning. If getting a tile toe kick the plan is the same. 45° now means 45 years of ease in cleaning an otherwise difficult 90° inside corner.:dunno: Just my plan.:D
I like the built base that you liquid nail 2x4 blocks at the inside corners after the entire base has been connected and leveled with shims and or wedges. Then nail through the walls into the blocks. Add cabinets and stir.:doh::D:rofl:
 
Here are a few of the inside corner helpers I have here at the house. They are tiled but since I started using this 45° method they are the only ones I can immediately show examples of. I tiled them after I layed the floors.:D

DSCN0008.jpg

DSCN0009.jpg

DSCN0011.jpg

DSCN0016.jpg
 
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Nice, Shaz...:clap:

Those look like they would help a lot in keeping the toe kick area clean...and provide a nice custom look at the same time...:thumb::thumb:

Thanks for the pics.
 
After years of running installs all over the states of Florida and Georgia -- for cabinets -- all I can say is separate bases are the way to go. Later, when I had my own cabinet shop I modified it a bit. Separate bases, but with a finished side(s), the ones that would show. I stopped applying a finished toe kick after the fact as a means of saving time and effort. What I would do -- set my bases in place and level them only along the back against the wall. Put my cabinets in place and screw them all together along one wall, doing the front to back leveling/shimming as I went. If a corner was involved I would do the same on the other wall. Once the base cabs were screwed to the wall and levelled I would then shim the front of the bases (kicks) between the bottom of the base cabinets and the top of the bases so that it would create a nice tight look to the floor. No one will ever see the space between the kick and the cabs. And no 1/4" facing was ever needed. I would also shim in the middle of the cabs to prevent sagging cabinet floors. Made for real quick installs, and field work man hours are more costly than shop man hours. If an end panel was required, I would do a full floor to counter panel, with no notch. This created a nice visual effect, keeping the kick hidden in a reveal.

As for construction of the bases -- butt joints and staples - that's it. No glue or screws (made for quick field modifications if needed, and if I ever encountered an area I thought needed more reinforcement, pocket screws or trim screws could always be added on site.) Bases never really encounter much stress, other than downward, so they really don't need to be held together with much.

The other thing about separate bases is it saves time and material in the shop. On a 4x8 sheet you can get 6 base cabinet sides (24 x 30.5" ) out of one sheet vs. 4 for notched sides (24 x 34.5"), and you save the time of having to notch them all. Doesn't really matter if the style is frameless or face frame.
 
shaz, I do something simliar now after having clients in the past say how they hated cleaning under my "fancy" kicks.

sam, that sounds kinda like what i was thinking i could do. do you happen to have any pic of these jobs you had done? i would really like to see them.

thanks for the input everyone. i'll show what i do now in an upcoming thread of a recently completed job.
 
doug, not a problem, my shop is in limbo kinda.

the sheeting is all done, i need to go back and make sure i have screws everywhere they need to be. prolly a couple of hours work there. i have 2 more pieces of facia type trim to put on the front.

at the moment i am waiting on my roll up door, it came in and was the wrong color. i need to do my elec but will not do that till i can lock the shop

people...err...thieves have been stealing wiring out of houses after it has already been run. crazy i know, but i am not taking the chance. the only benefit of getting out of dad's shop and into mine is it's about 3 min closer to home, and i get to layout the tools in a new more efficient fashion. working in dad's shop for almost a year has helped me learn what i would do different. the shops are the same size but my eave height is higher.

but that is where it is at the moment. waiting on a stupid door!!

thanks for asking, i am gonna try and get a layout sketch done so i can get opinions on it before i start.

chris
 
After years of running installs all over the states of Florida and Georgia -- for cabinets -- all I can say is separate bases are the way to go. Later, when I had my own cabinet shop I modified it a bit. Separate bases, but with a finished side(s), the ones that would show. I stopped applying a finished toe kick after the fact as a means of saving time and effort. What I would do -- set my bases in place and level them only along the back against the wall. Put my cabinets in place and screw them all together along one wall, doing the front to back leveling/shimming as I went. If a corner was involved I would do the same on the other wall. Once the base cabs were screwed to the wall and levelled I would then shim the front of the bases (kicks) between the bottom of the base cabinets and the top of the bases so that it would create a nice tight look to the floor. No one will ever see the space between the kick and the cabs. And no 1/4" facing was ever needed. I would also shim in the middle of the cabs to prevent sagging cabinet floors. Made for real quick installs, and field work man hours are more costly than shop man hours. If an end panel was required, I would do a full floor to counter panel, with no notch. This created a nice visual effect, keeping the kick hidden in a reveal.

As for construction of the bases -- butt joints and staples - that's it. No glue or screws (made for quick field modifications if needed, and if I ever encountered an area I thought needed more reinforcement, pocket screws or trim screws could always be added on site.) Bases never really encounter much stress, other than downward, so they really don't need to be held together with much.

The other thing about separate bases is it saves time and material in the shop. On a 4x8 sheet you can get 6 base cabinet sides (24 x 30.5" ) out of one sheet vs. 4 for notched sides (24 x 34.5"), and you save the time of having to notch them all. Doesn't really matter if the style is frameless or face frame.

Sam makes some very good points. It makes cabinet construction and installation much easier.
Another situation where it easier to use separate toes kicks is on garage cabinets going in the direction of the sloped floor. Here in CA most garages have about a 2" slope from back to front to allow for drainage. You build the front of the toe kick a little high than usual... may be 6". This allows you to be able to scribe it tight to the floor. You keep your lateral supports a little higher and then when scribed you shim them. It makes for a clean install. A lot easier then trying to shim individual bases ... let alone the problem you have with either cutting cabinet bases or dealing with shimmed cabinets sticking up in the air.


Doug
 
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