New Tools For Profit?

If you read my other post on the Old Tools Sub-Forum, you will see that I am considering taking in old sentimental tools and rebuilding them to their former glory. This would be for some profit of course...

Now what do you guys and gals think about making new tools? Its interesting because at work if we need a tool to make something, we make it. This might be for a carpenter, mechanic or machinist...we are just a company that gets by with the motto that if you need it,take the time to make it. Very seldom to we get tools to do a job...we just make them ourselves. That is a long way of saying, I call myself a machinist, but really am a toolmaker.

Now at work I don't just make boat parts. I make floating jewlery,so I know the ins and outs of making things look absolutely stunning. I have all these ideas on how to improve tools and make old planes not only beautiful, but alot more functional. The problem is, building these tools takes time. And time is always money.

Do you think there is a market for this kind of thing? Do you think other woodworkers would be willing to pay high, high prices for one-off, custom made tools?

What I would really like to do is work with woodworkers one on one and build custom tools taylored to exactly what they do. They did this a little at Lie Nielsen but I would like to go all out, working with a woodworker on a one on one basis and build something super functional,and even more stunning. I just don't know if there is a market for such high-end, custom tooling?

Hello Travis,
It seems to me that when someone needs a custom tool they need it now. How long it will take to make a new tool may be an issue. I guess if someone would be able to see ahead of time or be making alot of the same thing then time may not be an issue.
I think your ideals are good, expecally the old tool ideal. I always go to these old farm estate where unfortunatly someone has died, it is really cool to see the old tools that seem to sell really cheap. Most people look at you like you have two heads when you bid on a tool that is rusty and looks like it could never work again. Its amazing how a little elbow grease can bring a tool back to life. Once they are back to working order 9 times out of 10 they are the best tools to use. They made quality tools back then, before plastic gears and such were used.
Give your ideals a shot and see what happens. maybe go to these auctions and buy some older tools, bring them back to life and see if there is a market for them. Good Luck

There are a few folks out there doing somewhat what you are talking about. Wayne Anderson, for instance, makes some beautiful infill planes that he generally has no trouble selling for a few thousand dollars each. Mike Wenzloff started making hand made handsaws a couple years ago, initially marketing and selling them himself. He had several standard models but would also custom make a saw for you. He now has a waiting list of several months for custom saws and has a couple retailers of fine tools selling everything he can make.

Steve Knight makes (or made, I'm not sure what his status is now) custom wooden body hand planes. He ran into timing difficulties doing everything pretty much custom. He couldn't go into a real production mode and have inventory on hand, because of the custom aspect, and his offering them in so very many different woods and bedding angles and the like. He had a lot of disgruntled customers because it took so long after ordering for him to ship the planes. IMO he was charging way too little for the time he had to put into each item, but he couldn't get his prices up because he often ended up offering "specials" at reduced prices to take advantage of larger quantity production runs. He recently got a CNC router set-up and is doing a lot of the work with that and is selling kits which lets him spend significantly less time tuning the finished product while increasing his sales allowing him to take better advantage of larger production runs for each machine set-up.

I can't speak knowledgeably to the subject. But can offer that in the town of Eureka Springs, Arkansas there are two brothers who make wood planes in the 'olde' style and can't keep up with orders. Reportedly, their planes are excellent and beautiful. I plan to go visit their shop someday.

YES! There is a market for it. Question is how is your Marketing/Buisiness Skills?

Steve Knight is a regular over at Woodnet. Admired his work for years. My personal opinion of Steve after reading his posts and frustration is that he is a craftsman, quite good at what he does. But his is not a business man and that is why he suffers and hasn't made the name other have made. He is of the same caliber craftsman as some of the others mentioned. Just not a good business man. He needs help in that area, he needs to building and someone else running the business side and doing his marketing and planning.

Craftsmanship is one thing, running a business is another. It takes both skills. I personally believe that is why most small startup businesses never make it. I have had two that failed, so I know a little about that.

I have a great idea for a business. Everyone I tell the idea is like, why hasn't then been done before? Well I finally gave up. I tried it and found I didn't have the marketing skills and my budget was too limited to "teach" people of that advantages. It's still a great idea but it's new and takes some educating people of the advantages and time. I discovered I don't have the skill set needed to get this off the ground. Expensive lesson learned.

I've got one of Steve's planes, a 50 degree coffin smoother. Great plane and one of my most used. I hope his newest venture pays off. As hard as he works, he deserves success, and I think the kit thing he's doing may be just the ticket.

As to the original question, there are obviously a number of woodworkers out there with oodles of expendable cash to buy the sorts of tools that the Wayne Andersons and a few others make. The problem is getting your foot in the door.

Travis,

Can you make one of these:



That's from Wayne Anderson's site. Jerry's not joking about the prices for those infill planes... we're talking about shop jewelry that costs thousands. In some cases, many thousands. Here's another direct quote from the same site:

" I'm sure you will find that my prices are very competitive. Please call, email, or write to discuss details and actual quote."

Translated into english, that means "Just hand me your wallet. And maybe the keys to your safe deposit box"

As you know from the yacht market, people who pay that kind of money will be incredibly picky. And I don't think any of these guys are getting rich... It just takes too much time to make each one...

Good luck,

Thanks,

Bill

(ps. Here are a few cool links:

http://www.thebestthings.com/infill.htm

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...p&Product_Code=MS-ILESA5.XX&Category_Code=CRI

http://www.xmission.com/~jry/ww/tools/a13/a13.html

And my personal favorite: http://www.hocktools.com/kf175.htm

Sadly, even that one is too rich for my blood...

I think it was Chris Schwartz from Pop WW who said in an article about the high end designer handplanes, " . . . and the wood can't tell the difference."

Jerry Palmer said:

" . . . and the wood can't tell the difference."

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Thats why my "collection" of hand planes are old Stanley and Miller Falls users that are still tarnished and a bit ugly. But the wood never had complained.... well unless they were dull.

Most of mine are vintage Stanleys, too, though I do have a couple Lee Valley planes along with my Knight Smoother. One of the LV's is the large shoulder plane and it was less than the vintage Stanleys normally sell for though a bit more than the new Stanleys. Most of my handsaws are vintage Disstons or some I've made myself, though I did get a Wenzloff half back in kit form.

The LVs are about as rich as my blood gets, but, like I said there are some folks out there willing to pay big bucks for premium chariots. Just gotta get yer foot in the door.

There was a thread over there a couple months ago where Steve was whining about his expenses. As I recall, he got a lot of very good advice, but was not receptive to any of it. I've never tried any of his planes, but I understand they are pretty good. Seems to me he should bring on someone that is good on the business end and stick to making the planes.

Lets be careful and not let this get to a point of Bashing Steve Knight please.

But I agree Alan, just read the thread and that is exactly how not to run a business. If you have received payment for a product and it's shipping, there is no excuse for not shipping it. Perfect example of a poor business practice in action. I don't care who it is, after reading that 1) I wouldn't buy from them 2) It a sign that it is just a matter of time before the doors close.

It's amazing how some people can have to much skill and so little common sense. I have a friend that is a brilliant engineer. But I wonder sometimes how she finds her way home. Riding around with her is always an expedition. We get there but it by the scenic route and a lot of luck. Lots of funny stories on her lack of common sense. But from what I hear when it comes to engineering she is exceptional.

I have a relative that is a carpenter. I remember when he was just starting on his own. Had no business sense for sure! I remember he was painting a house and building a deck for a fellow. He had underpriced it, matter of fact the materials were about as much as he priced it for, so he was going to loosing money big time. Basically work for free. Got the job 3/4 done and walked off. Said he couldn't afford to finish it. He had to move on to something that would make money!

I wanted to slap him! He pulled that stunt a couple of times but finally he learned and does a good business now rehabbing houses for investors. But i am amazed he ever built a business with that kind of start.

My Grandfather always said that most business people work hard not to fail, but being successful, and having your business take off is what really kills them. They have no plans for success. In some ways I guess he could be wrong, and in other ways he is spot on.

My biggest fear is getting too many orders. I like my job now, and I have no plans to get done...not to mention I would need access to some of the tools in order to make my custom tools. So too many orders could literally put me into a pot like Steve Knight.

Right now I am dipping my toe into the toolmaking world by making a few hand tools. I plan to see how these go and see if I can glean something out of my efforts. My first attempt...a shoulder plane (I'll post a picture) came out good in that it works as designed, but it is hardly perfection. Its still limping along, but has a few defects that can never be fixed.

Yesterday I started crafting up a Presentation Dovetail Saw. I must apologize to Alan DuBoff for that. I know this is his area of expertise, and I have no intention of stealing his thunder, its just that with all the handsaw talk, I could not help but look at some scrap steel we had lying around, and picture it as a saw. Now I say Presentation saw because its going to be mostly for show...polished stainless steel...316L stainless being hardly the best steel to hold a sharp edge. Still sitting inside a glass case, all polished up, it would be a fitting...and a working Presentation Dovetail Saw for a retired carpenter or something who has worked 40 loyal years for a company or something like that.Anyway that is kind of what I was thinking about getting into.

Travis Johnson said:

......My biggest fear is getting too many orders.

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Thats easy! Just say no!

I was thinking about running a tool business a good bit yesterday while I worked. The simple answer for someone producing a product is don't take orders. Just offer what you build for sale when it's finished. Then you work on your terms and your never behind.

If you want to build 5 saws, build them then offer them for sale when done. If you have a following then make a list of people interested in buying one WHEN it is finished. Contact them and see if they still want it. If not contact the next person on the list. If you don't take money up front your under no obligation. When you start taking orders and money your obligated. I don't doubt you would follow through but if it's a hobby/side line it seems better to me not to take orders.